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VICTORY (1)

JT The thought for this afternoon’s reading is to present the truth of the victory from God’s side, so that we may see it from God’s side and see what He affords to us in a sense of victory at this time. Then it is thought to take up other scriptures for the evening occasion, so that we may see how the victory is worked out in the believer’s soul. We shall, in the later meeting, read from certain scriptures such as Revelation 15, and see how certain persons acquire the victory over the beast. Other scriptures will be added, but now, as we have said, the thought is to present the truth from God’s side, from these two scriptures, and immediately to show that the truth in mind in Romans 8: 11 is that the Spirit quickens our mortal bodies. It is not the Lord who does it, but the Spirit. It does not say that the Spirit raises us, nor that He takes us up to heaven, but He quickens us. I think it worth while to mention this so that we may all have it before us. The quickening of our mortal bodies is by the Spirit, not by the Lord, nor by God the Father, but by the Spirit. I think it well that we should have before us as much as possible what is said of the Holy Spirit at this time, because of its importance. The Spirit is speaking about Himself, and He would have us to understand that whilst the imminence of the Lord’s coming is to be before us, yet the actual quickening of our bodies (because it is a question of our mortal bodies, not of our dead bodies, but our mortal bodies) is by the Spirit. God will raise the dead. “The dead in Christ”, we are told, “shall rise first”; but the imminent divine action is the change of our mortal bodies. We may be free now to look at the passage in 1 Corinthians 15 as to the work of God in the sense of victory for us. The apostle begins by saying, “Behold, I tell you a mystery”. I tell you, “We shall not all fall asleep, but we shall all be changed, in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must needs put on incorruptibility, and this mortal put on immortality. But when this corruptible shall have put on incorruptibility, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall come to pass the word written: Death has been swallowed up in victory”. That is the act of God: “Death has been swallowed up in victory. Where, O death, is thy sting? where, O death, thy victory?” I hope the dear brethren will be free to join in with this subject. The coming of the Lord has been much in our minds, and specially, indeed, from the time of the revival, and it is now imminent. It is a question of our being ready for it, and the Lord is looking for this.

Rem What you have said about the Spirit’s part in this matter seems to fit in with the way the verse in 1 Corinthians 15 is framed, “This corruptible must needs put on incorruptibility”. Does that contemplate the believer having an intelligent part with the Spirit in what is done?

JT Well, whether we should be conscious when it is done is just a question, because it is done in an instant. But I suppose, in so much as we are mortal and have our faculties, we will be conscious to some extent.

GMS When the apostle says, “I tell you a mystery”, does that involve the working of the Holy Spirit? Does not the word ‘mystery’ in Paul’s teaching always have in mind the operations of the Holy Spirit?

JT I am not so sure that I would say it has, because the mystery itself in Romans is the assembly. Of course, what is involved in the assembly is ^[p. 482] mystery, but then it is the mystery of God, I am not sure of the force of your remark.

GMS I thought it linked on with all that Paul had in mind in regard of the peculiar place the assembly has in her relations with Christ. I have in mind that mystery, as Paul presents it to us, always involves the presence and workings of the Holy Spirit.

JT I would say so, but I am not so sure that I would connect it specially with the word ‘mystery’, because there is the mystery of God. The word ‘mystery’ is used by itself as embracing Paul’s ministry, and that includes the assembly.

GMS This is “a mystery”, not “the mystery”.

JT That is true. “Behold, I tell you a mystery”.

FJF Is a mystery that which is only known to the initiated, those whom God lets into the secret?

JT That is right. It is only known to the initiated. Therefore it strictly comes in with Paul; it belongs to his ministry. Although the word ‘mystery’ is used elsewhere, it is properly attached to Paul’s ministry. There is the mystery of the gospel, for instance.

HW Are the saints being prepared for this matter of change every Lord’s day in connection with the Spirit’s work and the glory of the Lord coming before us?

JT I think so. I think we had it in Glasgow last Lord’s day, the power of change that enters into the service of God. John, for instance, said, “I became in the Spirit on the Lord’s day”. It is a change in his state and condition. The Lord Himself is seen as changing in the book of Revelation. He is seen in peculiar garb, in judicial garb, in chapter 1, but then as He speaks to John later in the chapter He says, “I became dead”. He shows, in that sense, that it was not mystical, it was a real matter. He says, “I became dead, and behold, I am living to ^[p. 483] the ages of ages, and have the keys of death and of hades”. All that is real as to Christ; it is not mystical or a similitude, but an actual matter.

AR Would this scripture fit in with 1 Thessalonians 4? It says, “we do not wish you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them that are fallen asleep”. He then goes on to describe the rapture.

JT What precedes the rapture is the change of our mortal bodies, and then we are caught up. The rapture is really by the Lord Himself, but the change of our mortal bodies is by the Spirit, according to the verse in Romans 8.

JSE So that when you speak of victory, what you have in mind is that it is wrought out here on the earth and we are now, in the power of the Spirit, to be brought into the gain of that.

JT Quite so. Change is possible because of the Spirit indwelling us. In the service of God, on the first day of the week, there is possible change immediately, especially when we come to the time when we speak to the Father.

JC-S Is the change in view of going up? In this passage, in 1 Corinthians 15, it does not go beyond the change, does it? The change takes place, the mortal body is changed, but we are not taken off the earth. 1 Thessalonians goes further, and speaks of our being taken up.

JT That is right, but I think the passage in 1 Corinthians 15 implies the rapture, our being caught up, although it does not state it.

JC-S The point is what you stated at the outset, the victory over death.

JT Quite so. That is the point. The victory is not the rapture, but the power over death; and of course the change in our mortal bodies as well; the quickening of our mortal bodies. That is what prepares us for the rapture, particularly in the passage in Thessalonians, where the apostle speaks of those ^[p. 484] whom God brings with Him. He is speaking about those whom God brings with Him, but of course he has the rapture immediately in mind. When God comes in, the dead saints shall be raised, and God will bring them with Jesus. That was what was said to the Thessalonians, for they did not know what had become of those who had died. They were concerned about them, but the apostle says that God will bring them with Jesus.

Ques You were speaking of the truth as from God’s side; why does he add the last verse here, saying to the brethren, “Be firm, immovable, abounding always in the work of the Lord, knowing that your toil is not in vain in the Lord”?

JT I think it is that the profession of christianity is a sure thing. The Lord is to come, and the dead are to be raised. That is what is in mind, and the victory implies that the dead are to be raised. There is nothing, therefore, to cause any fear or consternation at all to us; the dead are to be raised. The Corinthians were denying it; they were denying the resurrection.

JC-S And practically denying Christ’s resurrection thereby.

JT That is what it says, “How say some among you that there is not a resurrection of those that are dead?” That is what they were saying. It was infidelity out and out, and, of course, we want to get clear as to the antidote to all that, and that is that we believe; we are sure, and our labour is not in vain in the Lord. If the resurrection does not happen everything is in vain.

GMS May we connect the last trumpet with the teaching of Numbers 10? I have in mind the blowing of the trumpets in order to call the saints together. This is said to be “the last trumpet”.

JT I think the allusion is to a military movement. It is the last one, when everything is gathered ^[p. 485] up. That is what God is going to do when He comes in; everything will be gathered up and finished. The last trumpet would be the evidence that God has come in and everything is finished from His point of view.

FJF The Roman army moved away at the last trumpet.

JT That is the idea. Whatever was there they gathered it all up, packed up everything and went away. That is the idea in the last trumpet. So that we do not need to be anxiously concerned about our businesses, and all that attaches to man in the flesh, because the last trumpet means that all that is over; we shall come into what is spiritual, the power and victory of God.

FW Does this expression “must needs” connect with the believer having been indwelt with the Holy Spirit?

JT It certainly does.

FW And must his body be brought into conformity by this change because he has been indwelt with the Spirit; and now all that is connected with mortality is to be removed so that he may be entirely according to the Spirit?

JT That is right, and then what we call the rapture is dependent on that. The Spirit’s action precedes what we call the rapture.

JSE Is this part of the scripture intended to develop in us the corporate side of the truth? He says here, “if there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual one”, as over against the passage in Thessalonians which deals with the matter personally for our comfort. Is that right?

JT Very good. So that the stress is on spirituality, incorruptibility, “This corruptible must needs put on incorruptibility, and this mortal put on immortality”. But then the corporate side is what is, I believe, in mind when the apostle says in verse 58,

“^[p. 486] So then, my beloved brethren, be firm, immovable, abounding always in the work of the Lord, knowing that your toil is not in vain in the Lord”. It is a question of those who are ministering, those who have ability to serve the saints, that the labour should not discontinue, but that they should be in it, and at it all the time. “Your labour is not in vain in the Lord”. And, of course, that labour would reach the assembly, the corporate thought of the assembly. We must be set together in assembly, “There is one body and one Spirit, as ye have been also called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all, and through all, and in us all”. All that must go on because all these facilities are available to us. Let us therefore be working, let everyone be working, for our labour is not in vain in the Lord. If the work is really going on it is acceptable to God. It is not in vain; that is to say, the assembly is being formed.

Ques In verse 26 it reads, “The last enemy that is annulled is death”. What we now have before us is the victory side rather than annulment, is it?

JT That is my theme, that the dear brethren, all of us together, should have the sense of victory, because we are surrounded by so much antagonism, and particularly now the work of the devil. God is working, so that however much opposition there is, we need not be discouraged. God is working, and He is giving us the victory, as it says, “But thanks to God, who gives us the victory”. God gives it to us.

DJM Paul speaks of those who were saying that the resurrection had taken place already, and who were overthrowing the faith of some (2 Timothy 2: 18).

JT Whereas at Corinth some were saying that there was no resurrection, and so the apostle refers to certain facts to show that it was ridiculous to say ^[p. 487] that. It was a downright lie to say that, it could not be anything else. We want to be set against untruth or lying.

JSE “How say some among you that there is not a resurrection of those that are dead?” That is his challenge, is it not?

JT Quite so. This sort of thing was among the Corinthians, and it may be here in Edinburgh.

DJM It says, “their word will spread as a gangrene”.

JT Quite so.

JC-S Is the intention of the victory now that our souls should come into the truth and reality of resurrection?

JT Quite so. It is what God is doing for us. God is acting for us. He gives us the victory. He gives it to us. This evening we shall see how it is worked out in our souls experimentally, but what we are dealing with now is what God is doing, and what God is giving to us. He gives us the victory. It says in verse 54, “But when this corruptible shall have put on incorruptibility, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall come to pass the word written, Death has been swallowed up in victory. Where, O death, is thy sting? where, O death, thy victory?”. That is what God is doing for us.

FJF Is the thought that the outward man, the body, must be brought into accord with what God has already given us within, in our souls?

JT That is to say, He is going to give us the victory over death, which would mean that we shall be raised. “The dead in Christ shall rise first”, it says. We therefore want to be in accord with all that God has wrought in us inwardly. The one thing we are waiting for is the resurrection, the redemption of the body, and according to Romans 8, it involves sonship. We are awaiting adoption or sonship; that is, the redemption of our body. Our spirits ^[p. 488] are right with God and our souls too, but our bodies are not. Our bodies are still mortal, and have to be changed to immortality, into incorruptibility. That is just the one thing that we are lacking.

HKR “Then shall come to pass the word written: Death has been swallowed up in victory”.

JT It is an allusion to Isaiah 25. It is a question of the power of God.

AM Would there be a distinction between incorruptibility and immortality?

JT Well, there is a distinction, but I would say they synchronise.

CFI Is the thought in verse 57 that we have the victory now?

JT That is the idea. God gives us the victory, not He will give it, but He is giving it. He gives it now, that is what we are coming into in the power of the Spirit. But the word gives implies what goes on; it runs on to the literality of it; the literality of the idea of incorruptibility and immortality.

JC-S Would it mean that the pressure of death is lifted off our spirits now by the victory?

JT I would say so. We are not therefore to be afraid of death. The Lord says, “Fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul”, and then He says further, “but rather fear him”; that is, God. So there is no danger at all for us to fear. John’s writings, and Paul’s too, would show there is no danger; everything is fixed.

AM I was wondering if corruption has a moral bearing, and mortal has a physical. Paul refers to those that love our Lord Jesus Christ in incorruption, as if it is to have a continuing moral effect.

JT Quite so, but as to the point before us, that is the victory, there is no difference really between immortality and incorruptibility.

JSE Do the two expressions identify the two states? Would corruptibility refer to the state of the ^[p. 489] dead, and mortality to the state of living? Both are to undergo a change, and put on the opposite.

JT But we are corruptible now. I mean the flesh is corruptible, and we are as in the flesh. “This corruptible” is the present state we are in, not morally, of course, but that is the present state.

CFI Are we to have in view what is to take place on the earth? We are to be here in bodies of incorruptibility on the earth where death has prevailed.

JT It is a state of security. You cannot just say that we are incorruptible, although there may be something, as our brother mentions. But as regards our actual state it is corruptible; it is capable of corruption.

JC-S “For this corruptible”. It is present, is it not?

JT Just so.

CFI I had in mind the change, “This corruptible must needs put on incorruptibility”; it will happen on the earth.

JT Yes, it is God that does it for us. We cannot change ourselves in that sense, “This corruptible must needs put on incorruptibility”. God does that.

JGH “Flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s kingdom, nor does corruption inherit incorruptibility”.

JT That is quite true.

FW The verse that you read in Romans 8, verse 11, refers to quickening your mortal bodies also “on account of his Spirit which dwells in you”. Is this whole matter connected with the presence of the Holy Spirit in us?

JT That is the point in mind in the reading of the verse in Romans 8. In fact the whole chapter is stressing the Spirit, you might say. The Spirit is mentioned nearly twenty times in that chapter.

FW Is that why, in 1 Corinthians 15, it uses the expression “must needs put on”. As the Spirit indwells the body, it must needs be according to the mind of God that this incorruptible and immortal condition shall be reached.

JT It must needs be. God alone can do it.

HKR Would it be diverting to ask if Caleb and Joshua in Numbers 14 and Deuteronomy 1, were two who were really in the gain of victory, and not only in the light of it?

JT That is good. They did not fall in the wilderness. The bones of the ungodly, the disobedient, fell in the wilderness, but they did not fall in the wilderness.

HKR Will you say a word in regard of “abounding always in the work of the Lord”? Joshua and Caleb went through the wilderness with the light of the land in their hearts and they encouraged those they were among.

JT Quite so, and that word may be added to our passage. It certainly is added in 1 Thessalonians 4: “Encourage one another with these words”.

GMS Would it be helpful to refer to the actual resurrection of the Lord Jesus and how it came to pass? It is said of Him, is it not, that He was quickened, and it says of us that we are quickened together with Him. Then again in Romans 6 it says, “Christ has been raised up from among the dead by the glory of the Father”.

JT “Quickened together with him”. What is your point in that, about the Lord Jesus, that He was quickened, and that we are?

GMS I was thinking of the difference between the raising of the Lord and our being raised or changed. It says, “Thou wilt not leave my soul in hades, nor wilt thou give thy gracious one to see corruption”, Acts 2: 27.

JT It would mean that He was raised. Of course you might say He was quickened too, but ^[p. 491] we must guard a divine Person, when speaking thus, because He says, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up”. He could do it Himself. We can hardly say the Spirit did it for Him, but He does it for us.

TR I would like to ask if Stephen was in the gain of this quickening? It says, “being full of the Holy Spirit, having fixed his eyes on heaven, he saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God”. Was he in the gain of the victory?

JT Not yet, he was still in the flesh when he said that. He says, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit”. He was still in the flesh.

CAI In 1 Peter 3, it is said in regard to the Lord Jesus, “being put to death in flesh, but made alive in the Spirit”. Would that indicate that the Spirit had the quickening part with the Lord?

JT I do not think so, I would not like to say the Spirit did that. It was the Lord Himself really; “made alive”; it was the act of God.

AMcG In John 6 it says, “It is the Spirit which quickens”. Have you in mind that the Spirit is the quickening power wherever it may be? The Father raises the dead and quickens and the Son also quickens (John 5), but John 6 says, “It is the Spirit which quickens”.

JT Well, quite. “The Spirit which quickens”.

JR Would there be a difference between what is moral and what is physical in regard to what you are saying?

JT We have already alluded to the idea of quickening as the Spirit’s action, and then we have alluded to the idea of incorruption, or incorruptibility. There is a moral thought in that, as it says, “Grace with all them that love our Lord Jesus Christ in incorruption”. There is a moral side in ^[p. 492] that, but that is all I would say about it. In general, what we are speaking of refers to the action of God, not anything in ourselves, but God’s action.

Rem In Colossians it speaks of the quickening having taken place, “And you, being dead in offences and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, he has quickened together with him”.

JT That would be the moral side of the truth, of course. But it is God that does it, so it should be applied to us now, as bearing on our walk and service. It is God that does it.

ATG Would you say a little as to the difference, if there is any, between the change in 1 Corinthians 15 and the change carried out by the Lord in Philippians 3, “who shall transform our body of humiliation into conformity to his body of glory”?

JT It is very much akin. Philippians goes the whole way, whereas Corinthians does not go the whole way; it does not really take us off the earth. Philippians does; it says, “our conversation is in heaven”. So we are taken off the earth, as also in Ephesians, we are taken off the earth, according to the word, “has made us sit down together in the heavenlies in Christ”.

WHK Will you please give a word bearing on the scripture in 2 Corinthians 5, “our house which is from heaven”?

JT The apostle has in mind that they should be clothed, that is to say that they should not be unclothed; they should not be naked. The clothing would be the full thought of God for us, with our house which is from heaven. The word house is used there, which is a very general idea; we are clothed with that.

AM And in that passage he says, “Who also has given to us the earnest of the Spirit”.

JT . ^[p. 493] That is to bring us into present accord with it. He is already saying that he has a desire to have put on our house which is from heaven.

Ques Does not the apostle gather up the bearing of all this teaching in verse 58, when he says, “So then, my beloved brethren, be firm, immovable”, and so on. Is the intent of this light to stimulate us to toil in the Lord?

JT Exactly. That is the point. It is a question of our being in the thing, in the work, knowing that your toil (the word ‘toil’ is used) is not in vain in the Lord. So that we are to keep at it all the time. There is nothing to deter us because if we die we are going to be raised by God Himself; and if we live our mortal bodies will be quickened by the Spirit. Everything is safe and sure for us, and this has a stimulating effect on our present service.

HW Is that illustrated in Acts 4 where the disciples being let go came to their own company, and were praying and then the house was shaken?

JT Quite so. That was the way God assured them.

Rem How Paul himself seems to be stimulated here in the phrase, “my beloved brethren”! Does that not indicate that his affections are profoundly moved by bringing forward this truth?

JT Very good. I never knew a time when there was more enjoyment of fellowship and more stimulation to go on. The work of God is going on, and we want to be in it thoroughly. That is the point in the passage, and all this precious truth that we are dealing with is to bear on that. Verse 58 is the great end in mind practically.

DJM Is Paul in the power of it in the second epistle, when he says, “We ourselves had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not have our trust in ourselves, but in God who raises the dead; who has delivered us from so great a death,

^[p. 494] and does deliver; in whom we confide that he will also yet deliver”, 2 Corinthians 1: 9, 10. And then he goes on to labouring, “ye also labouring together”.

JT Very good. So it is all a question of stimulation, because there is a danger of flagging. Although we have had a good time for the last fortnight, yet perhaps we give up, and return to ordinary affairs and ordinary conditions. But if we give up the work of God is thereby hindered, and not stimulated.

HKR Is it your mind when he says, “My beloved brethren”, that that would be a word addressed to the saints in their local setting to continue in this work, as well as to those the Lord has given to serve in a general way?

JT Quite so. Everybody must take it on, and especially now the sisters, because the Lord seems to have given us a touch as to them, that they should be with the brethren in all these holy convocations. They should have part in it, and be in it thoroughly.

JC-S “The work of the Lord” is a very comprehensive term, is it not?

JT Just so, showing that the Lord is over all the services. That is another thing to keep in mind, that the Lord is over all the service and at times the Spirit of God takes part in it, showing the interchanging of the divine Persons. In Acts 13 the Spirit takes on the work, and He says to the saints at Antioch, “Separate me now Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them”. That shows what the Spirit Himself can do, as well as the Lord.

Rem I should like you to open up a little now the thought in Romans 8. We need some help on that point in connection with the Spirit.

JT I do not know whether the brethren all take it on, as I was saying, but it is a question of the ^[p. 495] action of the Spirit in verse 11 of Romans 8. It says, “But if the Spirit of him that has raised up Jesus from among the dead dwell in you, he that has raised up Christ from among the dead shall quicken your mortal bodies also on account of his Spirit which dwells in you”. That is a thing which I think we have overlooked, as far as I can see. We have not dwelt on the fact that before you can have the rapture, you must have the quickening by the Spirit of our bodies, our mortal bodies.

Ques Is that something additional?

JT I think it is.

Ques Would that be the last action of the Spirit?

JT I think so; we might be prone to think that the Spirit, being with us all the time, would quicken us and take us up to heaven, but He does not; the Lord Himself does that. He descends from heaven with a shout, with archangel’s voice and with the trump of God, and the dead in Christ arise first. It does not say that the living ones shall be quickened, in that passage in Thessalonians, because it is the Spirit that quickens them. He quickens our mortal bodies.

JC-S Then does the Spirit bring our bodies into accord with what He has wrought in them before we go up?

JT That is the idea. We are quickened here on earth, as far as I see, and then caught up together. So shall we ever be with the Lord.

WmH Would this be the last touch of deliverance where it says in the end of Romans 7, “who shall deliver me out of this body of death”? It is by the Spirit quickening our mortal bodies?

JT Very good. And then we are brought into Romans 8. I would say that fully, because the Spirit is made so much of in Romans 8, as anyone ^[p. 496] can see if he looks into it. As I said, nearly twenty times the Spirit is mentioned in Romans 8. There is contrast with chapter 7 where the state is one of bondage.

Rem We have a good deal in regard to the present service of the Spirit in Romans 8. I mean, “by the Spirit, ye put to death the deeds of the body”, and then, “as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God”, and then later the first-fruits of the Spirit are spoken of, “even we ourselves, who have the first-fruits of the Spirit”.

JT I have often thought that if anyone wishes to open up a positive line of truth, how much there is as to the Spirit as presented in Romans 8. Amongst these things is that He quickens our mortal bodies, which is the last great action that He performs upon us.

JC-S I think it is a most touching thought, that the Spirit begins first in us, in new birth, and He goes on to complete His work so that we are perfectly ready to go up.

JT The Spirit according to John 3 really ought to be linked on with it as to the beginning of things.

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