THE WORSHIP OF GOD HIMSELF
[p. 94] THE WORSHIP OF GOD HIMSELF
Romans 11: 33 - 36; Romans 16: 25 - 27; Ephesians 3: 20, 21
JT These scriptures record the deep feelings that moved the apostle in his writing, first in the epistle to the Romans and then in the epistle to the Ephesians. The consideration of them may serve under the Lord’s hand to bring under review in a little way what immediately suggested the doxologies. We have first the ways of God on the earth as seen in Romans 10 and 11; then the gospel itself as outlined in the epistle, leading to the closing verses where the mystery comes into evidence which is outside these ways. It comes into them but had been hid, and the subject of the epistle promotes such deep feelings as to call forth an ascription of praise to God in regard of the mystery. Then we have the unfolding of the mystery itself in Ephesians, leading to such feelings as are expressed in the few verses read, including the power that is available, the power in which God does “exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think”. This last passage is intended to fortify us in the maintenance of the exalted truths of the epistle.
CAC Yes, indeed. Would you suggest that the spirit of these wonderful utterances is intended to pervade the service and worship of the assembly?
JT I thought the consideration of them would lead us to the great end in view in all God’s counsels and ways. In each case it is God, the ascription of praise is to God, God Himself being the great end; God as such being the end in view. I believe that as we are drawing near to the end of this dispensation the Spirit would move in that way, that God should come before us feelingly; for these ascriptions of praise are to Him because of what He is [p. 95] in Himself.
FWW In what character do you view God in these doxologies?
JT Well, briefly, the first scripture in Romans 11 alludes to His wisdom, knowledge and judgments as manifested in His ways. His sovereign ways, His sovereignty affecting not only His people but those who are not such; then the second in chapter 16 is God in relation to the assembly, the establishing (verse 25) being needed by us, but the doxology going to God as such; finally in Ephesians it is God as He is presented to us in John 1: 18, for instance-”No one has seen God at any time; the only-begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him”. So in Colossians, we have the Son spoken of as “image of the invisible God”-Christ is that.
CAC In what relation does that stand to the name of Father?
JT Well, I have been thinking lately that these relations into which God has entered through the incarnation have in mind what we are; it is God coming within the range of our intelligence and affections so as to secure us with a view to what He is in Himself. Having entered into the relation of Father with His Son, that relationship stands, but it is necessarily a narrower or more limited thought than the thought of Godhead, although the Father is God. The great thought is God; that is the word the Spirit of God uses to convey the Deity. That is the great thought. The relation into which He has entered is not anything less blessed, for it involves our being brought near in relations suited to Him, not simply as creatures but as sons; and all to the end that men might through redemption be brought near in freedom to worship God.
EJMcB You think of God as [p. 96] the supreme thought?
JT I think that is how Scripture presents the truth.
EJMcB And as to these doxologies, would the first one be more a question of His judgments, and the second one more a question of His wisdom, and the final one what we might speak of as the greatness of God? He is able to do all.
JT Quite so, as regards what is available for our help; and then, “To him be glory in the assembly in Christ Jesus unto all generations of the age of ages”. Ephesians gives us the full thought.
CSS Would that be suggested in Psalm 50: “Out of Zion, the perfection of beauty, God hath shined”?
JT Quite so, the shining out of God. It is not now the shining out of His creation, but He shines out of Zion, the perfection of beauty. The first doxology here is, “Of him, and through him, and for him are all things”; that is, the bearing of all this is Godward, as indeed we should expect in ascriptions of praise or worship. In unfolding these wonderful things by the Spirit, he knew the One who was capable of such emotions, reminding us that in ministry and service these emotions are in keeping. The ministry occasions them; the servant is not only being used, but he is an intelligent person himself and capable of these emotions.
FWW These doxologies result from the spirit of worship in the speakers?
JT That is what I was thinking, that in unfolding these sovereign ways of God in relation to Israel the apostle is moved first as to the depth of wisdom; the first doxology is occasioned by the thought of the depths of wisdom, that is the first thing mentioned: “O depth of riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God!”
[p. 97] Ques Would the title here be equivalent to the title in the first chapter of Genesis, “In the beginning God”?
JT I think so, I think that is what is in mind; it is God. “In the beginning God”. The word is in the plural in Genesis 1, which would emphasise the thought of the Supreme, the One to be worshipped.
CAC Are these ascriptions specially to be noted as being the only intimation of the character of worship on the part of the saints? We have no account in the New Testament of expressions used in the assembly, have we?
JT You mean that we have no psalter in the New Testament, so we have to take these expressions as representative of what believers said in the early days. Yes, one can understand that if the apostle Paul were in a meeting on the first day of the week, as he would be as he had opportunity, he in worship to God would touch on these things. Of course, we rightly bring Christ and present Him to God in His infinite perfections as Son; but then there is what God is, and that is touched on in these passages: “O depth of riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and untraceable his ways!” You feel that the speaker is in the presence of God, the Source of all, for he proceeds to say, “Of him, and through him, and for him are all things”. He is in the presence of God! He would be supported in this, of course, by the great Priest, for access to God is through the great Priest; and he would be in the power of the Spirit; but he is in the presence of God.
LM As to God and the Father, would you say why John in his gospel and epistles puts the two thoughts alongside so often? For instance, in chapter 4, “The Father seeketh such to worship him”; and then, “God is a spirit, and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and truth”.
JT While they run together, God is the great thought. “God is a spirit”. The Father denotes a relationship entered into; in John it usually denotes God in grace, that He has entered into that relation in grace, hence, “The Father judgeth no man”, John 5: 22. That shows in itself that it is a title or relation narrower, though not less blessed, than the primary or the final thought. God is the primary and the final thought. The relations taken are with a view to the great final thought being reached, that God might be known. See what a knowledge the worshipper has here! What an apprehension of God he has! How he is moved in thinking of Him, in the word, “O depth of riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God!”. He is in the presence of God, he is in the presence of the great Being who has come out; and he is moved in His presence and moved intelligently.
Ques Is that the thought in 1 Corinthians 15: 28. “Then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all”?
JT That is the end.
EJMcB Is this somewhat similar to Israel’s blessing of Joseph’s sons, where he refers to the God that had brought Abraham and Isaac through? “The God before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac walked, the God that shepherded me all my life long”, Genesis 48: 15. Is that the character of doxology, and should we not experience, as the result of God’s ways with us, this holy sense of His own blessedness?
JT That is what I think we might see, that the Spirit is aiming at that; God is to be worshipped because of what He is Himself. Jacob alludes to the God of his fathers, and the God that shepherded [p. 99] him; his view is very great for him. But when you come to Exodus 3 God not only says, “I am the God of thy father”, but when Moses makes the inquiry, Who shall I say sent me? God says, “I AM”. There you touch something that enters into this chapter; “I AM hath sent me unto you”, Exodus 3: 14. That is the ever-existing One.
Ques As to the word of the Lord, “I ascend to my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God” (John 20: 17), is God the higher thought there?
JT God is necessarily the greatest thought. The Father comes first there, but it never comes first in the epistles. When you get the ascriptions, there it is to God and Father; God is first, so that we have to take John 20 as progressive. That is, you come into the knowledge of the Father; the Father is a term of the relationship into which He has brought us that we may know Him more intimately; the very term implies that. There is more intimacy possible than with God as God, but that intimacy that we come into serves us in good stead in worshipping God. The relationship is to that end, it is progressive; that in the knowledge of the Father I have power and more liberty to speak to God. I believe the Son in taking graciously a lower place on our account as Man, teaches us how to speak to God, gives us feelings, as in the case of the apostle here, suitable to God. The relation of Father and Son serves to that end.
Ques Is God as thus presented the Source and Object of all, in Romans?
JT That is what is stated plainly here, and with a view to that we see how He acted sovereignly in chapter 9, not only in regard to Isaac, but also in regard to Jacob and Esau. He acted sovereignly as to Isaac and Jacob in regard of those born after the Spirit; but He also acted sovereignly as to those who were not. He says, “Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated”. We have to know God in that way. He did not say He hated Esau before he was born, but it is brought in in that connection. Before they were born He said, “The elder shall serve the younger”. That is God’s sovereign discrimination in favour of one person and against another. Then He raised up Pharaoh sovereignly to show His power in him.
TCF Would you say that God has entered into a mediatorial position so that He might be known thus?
JT The relationship and the system of affections are really to lead us into a state great enough to worship God; not that the worship of God is any more blessed, but it is the end in view. Obviously the Creator is to be worshipped, the Supreme is to be worshipped.
Ques Is that the idea of glory in each scripture?
JT Exactly, the great end is God, and these relations set men free, set us free so that we might worship Him.
PAR Would this doxology connect with Proverbs 8 in any way, the beginning of God’s way there?
JT I think so, wisdom is in mind in that chapter as marking His ways. That is the first thing mentioned in Romans, “O depth of riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God!”
GCS In the song of Moses he says, “Ascribe ye greatness unto our God”, Deuteronomy 32: 3.
JT Quite so, “greatness unto our God”.
CSS Is your thought that these depths of God’s riches are made known to the assembly, as we get, “The Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God”; and He reveals them to us?
JT He does, but this is really in a way greater, because it extends back to what was remarked as [p. 101] to Proverbs 8; it goes back to the beginning of God’s way; wisdom was there. Proverbs 8 takes us back to the beginning of everything, and wisdom was there; that is, you are impressed with this, that God was operating, and He was operating in wisdom. So that all Scripture is intended to promote the knowledge of God in our hearts and minds, from Genesis 1 onwards. “In the beginning God”; a great thought presented in a word that denotes supremacy and power, presented in the plural as if to remind us of God; and that is never to be lost sight of. The whole tenor of Scripture is to keep that before us, to make us worshippers.
Ques Is that what underlies the Lord’s prayer in John 17?
JT The three chapters in Romans blend together in the apostle’s mind by the Spirit. He begins with deep feeling as to Israel, as to those whom God took up sovereignly, showing that he is not a mere instrument but a feeling person, a man affected feelingly. He is a worshipper even in that matter. So deep are his feelings that he says, “I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh”, Romans 9: 3. That is the feeling that the sovereign ways of God promote in us. He took up that people and the apostle gives us a list of things that attached to them. “Who are Israelites; whose is the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the law-giving, and the service, and the promises; whose are the fathers; and of whom, as according to flesh, is the Christ, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen”, Romans 9: 4, 5. That is another doxology; it is the outcome of his feelings, of what he is about to speak of as to Israel, a people that God took up sovereignly and in connection with whom is the Christ; but who is He? God, over all, blessed for ever. Now you may question why this as to God is brought [p. 102] in there. We come at the end of these three chapters, 9 - 11, to God, and praise ascribed to Him because of His wisdom, knowledge, judgments, and so on; but this God is Christ too. Christ is God over all, blessed for ever. I mention that because of the importance of our being governed in our minds by Scripture’s way of speaking; lest there should be any shade cast on Christ. In making everything of God rightly there is not; it is just that He has come in according to this wisdom, according to love of course, but according to such a scheme of wisdom; that One who is spoken of as God over all should come in in connection with Israel and be known here as a Sufferer, a lowly Servant. But what for? To the end that the great primary thought of God should be reached; and it is reached in those verses read.
Ques Does this first doxology suggest the entire solution of every moral question for God Himself, everything caused to work for His glory in that way?
JT That is right; all is for Him.
Rem I thought this treatise on the gospel comes in so that God gets His own pleasure out of man now, however viewed.
JT “Through him”-we have to understand how that works out; I think the epistle has that in mind. At the beginning of these three chapters we see the wonderful scheme of wisdom, that Christ came in in relation to God’s earthly people. Instead of bringing Him in immediately after Adam failed, wisdom required that centuries should pass by, and God should call out a people in connection with whom all these things should be, and then that Christ should be by them. Surely we have to consider wisdom in all that! Wherein lies the wisdom of God postponing the incarnation? He spoke of it in Genesis 3, and He postponed it for centuries; and in the interim He calls out Abraham and Isaac and [p. 103] Jacob, and attaches to them the promises, the law and the adoption. He brings all these things in before the incarnation. What does all that mean? What have I gained by that? What is there in that lesson book for me? That is what enters into these chapters; and then finally the Christ, who is over all, God blessed for ever. There is the scheme of wisdom; the great lesson book for faith to understand and see how God reaches His thought in His ways on earth.
Ques Is it not the sovereignty of mercy that the apostle is speaking of here? Having learned what mercy is, it fits us to think of God in this worshipping way.
JT That is right; that comes into it, the idea of wisdom is the first thing mentioned. He is rich in mercy to all that call upon Him; and Ephesians too says He is rich in mercy; but then He is rich in wisdom. What does all this mean? Why did He defer the incarnation? What is He working out?
CAC And it is all God; if it is through Him, it is through God, not exactly through the Mediator. Is that important?
JT “Through him”; that is the reason why it is well to call attention to what is said about Jesus at the beginning as, “over all, God blessed for ever”. It is God’s doing, and the One who carries it out in detail, the Man Christ Jesus, is no less than that; He is God.
TCF Would you allow the suggestion that the thought of God in these doxologies is greater than that of God in Genesis 1?
JT It must be, for there we have the bare statement, “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth”; but now we have the unfolding of wisdom in God’s ways. Why did He defer the incarnation? He spoke of the seed of the woman [p. 104] coming in, but it was not immediate. All this is worked out in the meantime. What is it for? It is a question of wisdom, and as a lesson-book for us, so that we should be worshippers from this standpoint, so that we should know God from this standpoint; so the three chapters go over the ground. The apostle in the first emotional statement tells us the depth of his feelings-what he thought of those whom God called out, Israel, as He called them. But what do I think about them? It may be only a few years before God will begin to move in them; what do I think about them? The apostle says, what I think is this, that at one time I was ready to be accursed from Christ because of them; and he tells us why. Then he proceeds to show how God in coming in in this way works sovereignly; He took up Isaac instead of Ishmael; He took up Jacob instead of Esau; and so on. The principle of sovereignty comes home to me. Why did He take up me? Any of us ought to be able to say that, Why did He take up me? He passed by others. That is intended to make me a worshipper.
LOL Is it significant that we do not read much of wisdom until we come to Solomon? He asked for wisdom. Solomon wrote Proverbs 8.
JT You can see how great a thought wisdom is in Solomon, in God taking up a man and making him so wise. Wiser than all men; wiser than Ethan, than Heman and Calcol; he had no equal. Of course the thought is Christ: Christ now is the wisdom of God. But we can only touch on these things, they are really the greatest possible things; the greatest range of things is what is presented in these doxologies. It may be the gain will be in the suggestion more than in what may be said.
When we come to the last chapter, the apostle has the mystery before him. Why did God keep it a mystery? We are told in Proverbs 25 that it is the [p. 105] glory of God to conceal a matter, we have to understand wherein the glory lies; the glory of concealment. So that what is in view is the establishment of the brethren, of the saints, “according to my glad tidings, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, as to which silence has been kept in the times of the ages, but which has now been made manifest, and by prophetic scriptures, according to commandment of the eternal God, made known for obedience of faith to all the nations-the only wise God, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory for ever. Amen”. It is again a question of wisdom. We have to see wherein lies the glory of concealment, spoken of in the book of wisdom, that is the book of Proverbs, and how there was wisdom before the world, prepared for our glory. See 1 Corinthians 2: 7.
HPW It says here, “According to commandment of the eternal God”. That links us with the greatest thought of God.
JT Yes; God, but now the eternal God.
CAC Is that the thought of the mystery of God in Colossians? It is what pertains to the knowledge of God Himself. “In which are hid all the treasures of wisdom and of knowledge”, Colossians 2: 3. It is a greater and wider thought than the assembly, is it not?
JT That seems to be how it stands. The mystery of God, I suppose, includes all that can be called mystery. This thought of mystery is intended to make us treasuries, hiding places, safe keeping places or depositories for divine thoughts.
CAC Then the apostle’s agony of desire for the saints in Colossians 2 stands in direct relation to what you are bringing before us today.
JT He was combating. One feels how meagre we are in dealing with these immense matters, but [p. 106] yet they belong to us. One is made to feel one’s limitations and the limitations of the brethren; how little we can elucidate these thoughts, they are so great and we are so limited! The very suggestion of these wonderful depths of God is so great, unveiling His mystery so that we may be rooted and grounded in love. It is the state of the saints that is in mind here. Even a Paul could not unfold the thing to certain ones because of their state. What God would remind us of is our state; whether them is the state of love and the unity of the Spirit, so that these things should be unfolded to us that we might know “the mystery of God; in which are hid all the treasures of wisdom and of knowledge”.
EJMcB Would the thought be that if one accepts the sovereignty of God and the wisdom that has taken one up, one would want to be established in the present ministry and the place the assembly has in the mystery of God?
JT The epistle, I suppose, augments this; the apostle does not go forward to unfold it to the Romans, but it is the expected outcome that should be looked for by those who have received the gospel; “according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery”. It was already revealed; it does not speak of it as future, it was already there; but the Romans evidently were not ready for it. The establishment would be that we might be equal to the thing, to the mystery that he speaks of here, leading up to the great thought of God wherein are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. They are hidden there; they are not spread abroad for the natural mind of man; they are hidden there.
CAC Could we have a little on Ephesians 3?
JT Well, I thought it would be a good finish to our reading as leading up to the great end. The passage really begins immediately with the apostle’s [p. 107] prayer to the Father that He would grant the saints to be strengthened by the Father’s Spirit in the inner man. It is the Spirit of the Father, I apprehend, to the end that the Christ should dwell in our hearts by faith, that we being rooted and grounded in love, should be able to take in what is “[p. 110] the breadth and length and depth and height; and to know the love of the Christ”. That is where we are led to, to this great thought, the strengthening by the Father’s Spirit, that we might thus be fully able to know “what is the breadth and length and depth and height; and to know the love of the Christ which surpasses knowledge; that ye may be filled even to all the fulness of God”-not the Father here, but God. Then in verse 20 he says, “But to him that is able to do far exceedingly above all which we ask or think, according to the power which works in us, to him be glory in the assembly in Christ Jesus unto all generations of the age of ages”. It seems as if we are led there to the final thought as to what God has in mind in the assembly.
Rem The Father’s Spirit would give us ability to apprehend Christ in His greatness. “Strengthened with power by his Spirit in the inner man; that the Christ may dwell” in our hearts.
JT I think what you say suggests much. The relation entered into of Father and Son enables God to speak so as to be intelligible to us as to what He thinks of Christ, what His thoughts of Christ are. It is not simply God and man, it is Father and Son; and that is a relation that existed in humanity from the very beginning, and it is intelligible to us, “This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased”, Matthew 3: 17, was the announcement from heaven; and that was said of a Man. Well, we are capable of understanding that. God works by way of environment with an end in view. He placed the relation of father and son in the human race; I do [p. 108] not think He placed it in the angelic order of being, although angels are called the sons of God. But I do not think Scripture warrants the thought that there is the relation of father and son amongst angels, that there is any suggestion of it. He is pleased to place that relationship in the human race; and all that God did had a purpose in it. He enters much more into detail than we are inclined to think, in view of taking us up according to His counsels. He operates externally: our antecedents, how we are brought up, our environment, all this is in God’s mind. He works with wonderful forethought and detail in regard of each of us; and if He had the idea of coming in in the relation of Father and Son. He places that relation amongst men. It is well known. And so at the Jordan He announces from heaven, “This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased”. Anyone who heard that would be affected. There is the relation of Father and Son; a Man being here on earth in that relation.
EJMcB And that is conducive to the knowledge of God in a worshipful way.
JT Conducive to the full thought that God had in mind.
CAC So this scripture confirms the line of thought you have been suggesting; the Spirit of the Father strengthening, and Christ dwelling in the heart through faith, leading up to the great thought of the fulness of God.
JT Yes; that there may be glory to God in the assembly in Christ Jesus.
CSS Do you think that the knowledge of the Son of God referred to in Ephesians 4 is preparatory to our being filled to all the fulness of God as in chapter 3?
JT I should think so, but of course in the epistle it comes afterwards in relation to ministry. All comes from the ascended Man, Christ in heaven,
[p. 109] and the wisdom with which He has provided the ministers, as it is said, “for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ”, Ephesians 4: 12, 13. You are alluding to that thought of the fulness of Christ. That fulness of Christ is one thing; what He is as Man in sonship, what comes out of that, as it were, that is what we are to come to. The fulness of God is obviously a greater thought although they run together. Being filled to all the fulness of God is, I apprehend, that the assembly is set up in the presence of God in the light of the full knowledge of God, not in the weakness of the creature but in power filled unto all the fulness of God. I stand up there with all the saints as filled in the presence of God. Each of us would be there in that way.
AJG Would that be the perfecting of the saints that you referred to at the beginning?
JT The perfecting of the saints comes in chapter 4, in the work of the ministry; the gifts are to that end, for the perfecting of the saints. That is to say, the saints are to be brought round to the full exercise of their senses, nothing missing, no malformation; so that there might be growth, growing up to Christ in all things. But then, “filled even to all the fulness of God”; of course it is perfecting, but not the same thought, I think. The thought is that there is capacity formed; the saints are great persons. The Father’s Spirit in the inner man implies capacity. I want to be able to take everything in that is there; and that is why we ought to be attentive now. The apostle says he bows his knees because of that; in Colossians he combats in view of the mystery of God, but here he bows his knees in view of capacity in the saints, that we may be fully able to take in the “breadth and length and depth and height; and to know the love of the Christ which surpasses knowledge”. Think of the greatness of these things! It is a question of capacity by the Father’s Spirit in the inner man.
Rem I was wondering whether the thought is seen in the sons of God in Job 38: 7. The sons of God entered feelingly into what God was doing.
JT I think you can link that on with Paul here in Romans; how they were moved when the foundations of the earth were laid; the sons of God shouted for joy and the morning stars sang together. They entered sympathetically into what God was doing. With Paul, after the long history and manifestation of power on God’s part, how beautiful it is to see him ascribe praise to God because of what He is! Not only what Christ is-of course Christ is the manifestation of God-but then God is to be spoken to in relation to what He is Himself.
Ques Have you the Holy Spirit in mind in relation to God?
JT Certainly; He is God Himself. God is here by the Spirit. That is why I was remarking that we should pay attention to the way Scripture speaks. We have in Genesis l, “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth”; then, “And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters”. It is the same God but now He is moving in compassion, and that runs right through the history of the Spirit as we have it in the Scripture. It is what God is here compassionately and feelingly. God maintains His own majesty; He is God, and yet He serves, and even makes coats for Adam. And right through it is God as feeling, even humbling Himself to behold the things in heaven and in the earth (Psalm 113: 6). Yet He maintains His majesty in the Deity.
[p. 111] Rem The heart of the apostle is bowed in the conscious sense of God’s absolute supremacy.
JT That is what I was thinking. The apostle is great enough to speak to God in this way; and that is what one would like, to be great enough for such utterance. The passage is a matter of inward ability; that we may be filled, able to take in these great things.
EJMcB We are to be competent to worship God intelligently.
JT And great enough in our feelings, not only to use the expressions, but great enough inwardly in ourselves in speaking to God. It is not only the question of intelligence, but of the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of God; that is Ephesians 1. Then the Father’s Spirit in the inner man giving me ability to stand up in the presence of all this, and to enjoy it; and to speak of it feelingly as Paul does here. You can see what a man Paul was by the Spirit, as able to speak in this way, and with such fulness.
Pages 112 to 517: “The Mediatorial Service of Christ and the Holy Spirit”. Meetings in Great Britain, 1949 (Volume 180).