THE MEDIATORIAL SERVICE OF CHRIST AND THE HOLY SPIRIT (6)
[p. 226] THE MEDIATORIAL SERVICE OF CHRIST AND THE HOLY SPIRIT (6)
Revelation 21: 9 - 27; Revelation 22: 1 - 17
SMcC Would you be free, before touching on the passage that we have read, to say a word as to the end of verse 3 of chapter 21? “And God himself shall be with them, their God”. In relation to Philadelphia the Lord Jesus refers to God as His God, but here it says, “God himself shall be with them, their God”.
JT The allusion in the opening part of this chapter is to the eternal state, I would say, in which God Himself shines, whereas the verse at which we began to read refers to the millennium. So that we shall have to go back a little in order to get to the question you raise. The beginning of the chapter is, “I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea exists no more”. And then, in verse 3, “I heard a loud voice out of the heaven, saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he shall tabernacle with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, their God”. So that it seems as if, in the opening verses of the chapter, the Spirit of God has the eternal state of things in mind, whereas in the later part of chapter 21 and in chapter 22, we have the millennial world more. But now what is in your mind as to “God himself”?
SMcC I am asking for help as to what you apprehend is covered in the expression, “God himself”. Does it cover the three Persons of the Trinity, as we speak, the Father, the Son and the Spirit?
JT I would say it does.
CFI Do we have the three Persons in mind when we speak to God in the higher levels of the service?
[p. 227] JT It is just a question of what the mind of the speaker may be, what apprehension he may wish to convey; but in general when God is spoken of it is God that is to be in mind. But then Christ Himself is said to be God; “He is the true God and eternal life”. It is therefore a question, as I said, of what is in the mind, or what may be in the mind, of the person who speaks, what apprehension he has, and whether it is in accord with the Scriptures, or truth, and always remembering the element of inscrutability.
DJM “God ... all in all” would include the three Persons?
JT Quite so.
SMcC May I ask if when addressing God in the light in which He has now been referred to, we can hold concretely three Persons in our minds, or is it that we take account abstractly of the place that the Lord and the Spirit have and address one Person, keeping that in mind?
JT We are not equal to Deity, of course, and when the Lord says, “Go to my brethren and say to them, I ascend to my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God”. He is speaking of the Father as His God, and now ours. The question I apprehend in your mind is whether we are able to take in the idea of the three Persons; and that is a question of light, whether we can take in that light.
EuR But “God is one”, and does not that involve, in a certain sense, that when we speak to God as such, the three Persons are unified in our minds?
JT But why should we attach the word ‘unified’? I think it is redundant; we should just leave things as they are stated. The Deity is God, including three Persons, without saying whether They are unified or not. The three Persons stand out in Their dignity,
[p. 228] and the thing is, that the whole matter is beyond us really; as to the scope and ability of our minds we are limited, because we are creatures. We are dealing, however, with divine Persons; They are graciously allowing us to have to say to Them, and the Spirit of God supports us in this.
PL But the very sense of inscrutability should promote worship, do you think?
JT It should; just so.
JTS Would the word in the close of Ephesians 3 be important, where it says, “to him be glory in the assembly in Christ Jesus unto all generations of the age of ages”?
JT That is a phrase that is quite intelligible too. We are to be filled, it says, “even to all the fulness of God”, and then the ascription of the doxology.
HH Would it be right to say that we think in a mediatorial sense and distinguish, in our minds, the Persons of the Godhead in referring to Them?
JT Yes, only the attempt to distinguish is apt to take us beyond our depth; the Trinity is a human expression, but still it fits into the mind of the creature, and the Spirit of God aids him in apprehending it. How could we be, or do, anything in these matters save by the Spirit? The Spirit is here on our side; that is, on the subjective side, and He is here aiding us in everything, but especially in speaking of such matters as are now before us.
AED Does the declaration of God in John 1 suggest certain confines, to which, being creatures, we are limited? And what is beyond that we just hold worshipfully? “No one has seen God at any time; the only-begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him”.
JT Well, the thing is there; it is a question of the support the Spirit may give us. The thing is there and the Spirit supports us, and, of course, our measure would be corresponding. Take a person like [p. 229] Paul; what he would apprehend, and how he would speak of God, or to God. We might then begin to see what possibilities there are even in creatures, but the Deity by Itself is to be regarded, and It is known to faith. It is quite a scriptural idea, and God graciously allows us to move about, so to speak, in liberty, in that which faith apprehends, but it is according to the support that the Holy Spirit gives us. The support that He gives us makes all the difference.
SR Would you say a word as to “to us there is one God, the Father”?
JT Well, of course, that is specified. What is in mind there is the Father, just the Father, and He is viewed as the one God.
ANW May I ask whether it is not the Lord Jesus Himself that is speaking in verse 7, “He that overcomes shall inherit these things, and I will be to him God”. Are they the words of the Lord?
JT In verse 6 it says, “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end”. This is the Lord Himself, “I will give to him that thirsts of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcomes shall inherit these things, and I will be to him God, and he shall be to me son”. That is to say, the Lord Jesus takes the place here of being God to the overcomer. He takes the place of being the overcomer’s God. The overcomer is therefore in the position of a worshipper of God, but he is in the liberty that love accords to him.
Ques Has the assembly in her nearness to Deity, although limited to creature knowledge, a peculiar ability to apprehend something of the greatness of the Godhead, which no other family will have?
JT I would say that, fully.
CAI What is involved in the tabernacle of God? Is that the assembly?
JT Yes, [p. 230] I think so.
CAI So that she is the divine abode, in that sense. That would involve great intimacy with the Persons who have come into revelation.
JT That is right. So that the assembly has the greatest place of all the families in the heavens and on the earth; the assembly has the supreme place.
FJF When Paul said, “For of him, and through him, and for him are all things: to him be glory”, had he the Trinity in mind?
JT I think so. That is, of course, an ascription of praise. It is a doxology and, of course, it refers to God.
SMcC Can the instructed believer say intelligently, in speaking to God, ‘We worship thee Father, Son and Holy Spirit’?
JT Well. God is so spoken of, very much spoken of, as in the first Person and the second Person and the third Person. Well, it is simply God if He is so regarded. In the Old Testament it was the same idea; Jehovah’s name was one.
PHH Are you referring to, “and his name one”? Zechariah 14: 9.
JT That is it; “his name one”. That is what I was referring to. See also Deuteronomy 6: 4. That does not imply that the three Persons are not there. The three Persons are there. So also, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion”. God is there. The ‘our’ is, we might say, plural; we might say the three Persons are there, but then we have in our minds the idea of revelation in the New Testament; at the same time, the truth is there.
Rem In Acts 4: 24 the disciples say, “Lord, thou art the God who made the heaven and the earth and the sea, and all that is in them”. The footnote says that the word ‘God’ is Elohim; that is the plural.
JT Well, that would be in keeping with what we have said about [p. 231] Genesis l.
RWS In the order of the service of God, in what we speak of as the second part of the meeting, in the worship of God, do we go then beyond the Father and worship the Trinity?
JT Well, I would say in the sense in which John 20 speaks, “I ascend to my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God”. The Lord begins with the Father, “my Father and your Father ... my God and your God”; the finality is God. It is Christ’s God, but then He is our God too; and when we come down to ourselves, if we speak to God we involve the three Persons; we have in our minds the three Persons.
AA-n Is that brought out in John 4, where the Lord distinguishes between worshipping the Father, and then says, “God is a spirit; and they who worship him must worship him in spirit and truth”? Is that additional to the worship of the Father?
JT Well, I think we ought to take the phraseology in John 4, for instance, just as it is, I am afraid we are apt to confuse our own minds in not taking it simply as it is, the Spirit being with us to help us in what we say and do, if we are dealing with the service of God.
LES Does not David, when he is in the presence of Jehovah, in 1 Chronicles 17, suggest something of what we are speaking of, in the spirituality in which he refers to one and another of the appellations of God?
JT Quite so, and when we come to the New Testament we have more liberty and latitude than he could have had, but Chronicles clearly intimates that Jehovah was God, “And now, Jehovah, thou art that God” (verse 26).
HH The context will help in every place in which divine Persons are mentioned.
JT Well, it does; context greatly helps us. So that contextual reading of the Scriptures is of all [p. 232] importance. We are dealing with infinite things, but God is graciously allowing us to deal with them, and He supports us too, because He loves us and because we love Him, and so I would suggest that the passage read is almost an appendix to the book of Revelation, corresponding somewhat to the end of John’s gospel. Love is so much in the mind of the writer that he proceeds beyond what he had intended to do, and the Spirit of God goes with us in that, and supports us in it. So that when we come to the passage we have read we have come to millennial conditions. In the earlier part of the chapter we really come to eternal conditions, but the Lord seems to have in His mind to delay, or dally, as it were, over the great thoughts of the assembly. The idea of the assembly is so precious to Him that He gives it in full, and links it on with the Old Testament. That is to say, the greatness of the subject covers the Old Testament and the New, as if the Lord would make much of the assembly. And so we get the descriptions, even the tribes of Israel being in mind, as if Jehovah would be brought in according to His eternal thoughts, beginning with Genesis. Then the truth is brought down to the book of Revelation, and we have one writing who is, as we know, the disciple whom Jesus loved. But then he is a suitable vessel, and the Lord is using him. So we have the assembly made much of, more than might have been intended, so to speak; it is to make much of it. It is already mentioned in the early part of the chapter, but it is now taken up in verse 9, and someone takes John to a high mountain to show him the bride, the Lamb’s wife; to show him that. It is not that she looks like the bride, “as a bride adorned”, but she is the bride. She is the actual person herself. So the whole of the book, you might say from now on, is to occupy us with this wonderful thought. It is as if the Lord would dwell upon it and enlarge upon it, because He [p. 233] loves her. It is a question of love in the Lord’s heart to the assembly.
Ques Would you connect this aspect of the assembly with what we have at the end of Ephesians 1? I mean that the assembly is really sharing in the headship over the millennial scene.
JT That is true. No other family has such distinction as the assembly, because she really shares in the headship, according to that chapter. It is an Ephesian position.
WWM I would like to ask, referring to the wife and the bride, would it be right to say that He loves the wife because of what she has done, but He loves the bride because of what she is? And will that abide eternally?
JT Well, just so. And we do well to link on Proverbs 31 with all that we are saying. The wife there works in relation to the husband, and the husband is known through her. But what I am saying I am sure is right. The book of Revelation, of course, is written by the same person as the gospel of John, but it has that character to it that it has a sort of appendix, as if the mind of the Lord is to enlarge on the assembly, because He comes back to it. It was there, and the Lord had been speaking of it in His epistles, but now He comes back to it again. He comes back to it, not as having any history on earth (I mean fully); but it is now a question of its own place in the divine mind, only that it is in relation to the millennium. It is a question of the millennium, and what God had in His mind to work out and show what He can do in the millennium.
WC Might I ask whether the reference, “I will make him a helpmate, his like”, goes over into what is eternal?
JT Just so. We would do well to begin with Genesis when we deal with this subject, because it is a question of what God had in His mind. It was [p. 234] that He would make man in His image, after His likeness, and then the word ‘man’ includes the woman, the masculine and the feminine. That helps us with what we are dealing with now, one word covering both, as, for example, “so also is the Christ”, 1 Corinthians 12: 12, “The Christ” includes the assembly as well as Christ.
WC Does that mean then, that there will be assembly service eternally?
JT I think so. God had designed that, something for Himself. The whole matter must resolve into what God has designed and what He is going to have, and Christ is working it out for Him.
AJG Is that not what is referred to in the last verse of Ephesians 3, “to him be glory in the assembly in Christ Jesus unto all generations of the age of ages”?
JT Quite so. We have alluded to that before, and it is a wonderful passage. Ephesians 3 is really a great parenthesis, and it is because the assembly comes into it. There is the thought of the Father, “of whom every family in the heavens and on the earth is named”. So that we are in the presence of the greatest possible things in that chapter.
LES I think we can see what you referred to yesterday as to Revelation 3, “and shall know that I have loved thee”, in the presentation now of the assembly here as the choicest vessel for the delight of the heart of Christ.
JT Quite so, “And shall know that I have loved thee”.
Ques Would you say what is included in “having the glory of God”?
JT That shows that she is invested with it. It is not simply “glory” but “the glory of God”. She has it; she is invested with that. It says, “And there came one of the seven angels which had had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues, and spoke [p. 235] with me, saying, Come here, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb’s wife. And he carried me away in the Spirit, and set me on a great and high mountain, and shewed me ...”. Notice that, for that is not said in the early part of the chapter. Here it is said that it is carefully shown to John, “He ... shewed me the holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of the heaven from God, having the glory of God. Her shining was like a most precious stone, as a crystal-like jasper stone; having a great and high wall” and so forth. The glory of God is what she is invested with; not simply “glory”, but “the glory of God”. She has that, and that brings up the whole matter of the assembly. We are dealing with that, and the Spirit of God is dealing with it, and bringing it forward, as it were, a second time, because there is so much in it.
DJM Is it what she is substantially, having the glory of God, and having twelve gates?
JT It is what she has; what she is invested with, and that she is invested with the glory of God. It is a wonderful thing that the assembly has that great place in the universe. There is no other family like her.
FW Does the reference to the twelve foundations in verse 14, together with the fact of the twelve stones being referred to in verse 19, indicate that the assembly is a great basic thought with God?
JT Well, so it is. The Lord is coming back to it, as it were. The Spirit of God is coming back to it, from verse 9 onward, and it is the greatest possible thing, next to divine Persons, to be spoken of. It is a glorious thing that the Lord is, as it were, ready to fill us with glory as we come to the assembly, because it is designed for that; its capacity is equal to that.
JC-S Would “her shining” imply that she is to be the luminary of [p. 236] the universe?
JT Well, I am not so sure about being the luminary, because Christ is the luminary, as it says, “The lamp thereof is the Lamb”. The Lord Himself is the luminary, but she shines; she is luminous, that is all. She is not divine, but still she is luminous.
JC-S Is it that she would take her shining from Christ really?
JT Quite so; that must ever be kept in mind.
Ques What would you say about the place the angels have in the city in verse 12?
JT “Having a great and high wall; having twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names inscribed, which are those of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel”. The angels are simply augmentary, they are sent out as ministering spirits according to the word: “Are they not all ministering spirits, sent out for service on account of those who shall inherit salvation?” Hebrews 1: 14. They are augmentary, therefore, and are, as it were, servants or attendants on the assembly, as persons who are of a lower grade attending on others who are superior. The assembly thus is almost like divine Persons in that she is attended by angels. She is served by them for they are attendants as servants to the assembly.
Ques Is it interesting to see in the end of Ephesians 1 the place that Christ has? He is put above every principality and power, and it is in that position that the assembly is united to Him.
JT Quite so. Very good. That helps, I think.
JSE What is the force of the numeral twelve, so much in evidence in this chapter?
JT It is because it represents administration. The assembly has this wonderful administration.
Ques Is there not significance in the kind of angel employed to show these things to John, according to verse 9?
[p. 237] JT Well, he is one of those seven angels who had had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues. That is, he is a particular kind of angel, because he had had a certain administration of plagues, in the sense of judgment. It is as if he is suitable to point out the assembly, because the assembly is so important and she comes in for angelic service in that sense.
Ques Does it involve that there is to be a moral judgment of the vast scope of evil if the true character of the assembly is to be apprehended?
JT Well, that is good. So much is made of it that this particular angel is one of those who had had the last plagues. He had had to do with judgment of evil, and, of course, it is a great matter that we have ability in that sense, and a means of dealing with evil, so as to be free of it. I think the Lord intends that; so that in bringing forward the assembly in this peculiar and glorious way, He is pointing out that the evil is also in mind but there is power to deal with it.
PHH Would it be diverting you to say a little about the matter of sonship? The assembly is seen here in an eternal and millennial relation, and in the service of God we have some approach to that; we also have to the matter of sonship.
JT Well, it is said in verse 7, “He that overcomes shall inherit these things, and I will be to him God, and he shall be to me son”. That is the position, that we come in as sons, “He shall be to me son”. That is to say, the overcomer is a son, and, of course, that goes on into eternity, for God is bringing many sons to glory.
PHH I suppose it would not be quite right to speak about an assembly of sons, would it?
JT I think it is more that the spirit of Scripture would cause the sons to stand out individually. There are so many, but they are not viewed [p. 238] collectively.
P.H.H. Severally?
JT That is just right.
Rem We have “the assembly of the firstborn who are registered in heaven”, Hebrews 12: 23.
JT That is the assembly of the firstborn, and, of course, that would be the assembly in another view, consistent with the epistle to the Hebrews. It is among the eight things spoken of in that passage that we have come to. We have come to “the assembly of the firstborn”. That is to say, persons of that kind who have a firstborn’s place; a remarkable thing, for every one is a firstborn. It is not simply that there is a family, but every one a firstborn.
AJG Do you mean that the assembly is to be kept in our minds as the dignified vessel of service and administration, and then the saints individually in their dignity as sons?
JT Quite so, viewed severally. God loves to enlarge on the assembly, and to put forward what He has, His very best. The millennium is a secondary thought with Him, showing what He can do with the nations and with Israel, but this great thing is an eternal idea, and the assembly is it. The more we can see that, I think, the more we shall be armed with the truth of the assembly.
Ques Would you say, before you go on, whether millennial glory comes into the assembly service, and if so, where?
JT The assembly comes into the millennium but she is over it. She is not on the earth; she reigns over the earth; she comes in in that way. It is a glorious time, but it is a limited time. It is a thousand years, and the word ‘thousand’ is mentioned four or five times, which is a remarkable thing; whereas we are living in a dispensation that is not limited in that sense. We are living in a dispensation that has continued almost two thousand years, and is not finished yet.
[p. 239] Ques When the assembly is viewed in relation to Christ, is it always the feminine thought?
JT I would think that is true.
Ques Would you please give a link between the assembly as the bride of Christ and as the tabernacle of God, relative to what we are saying?
JT It is the same thing, only viewed in two ways.
Ques Does the tabernacle involve a vessel?
JT It does, “The tabernacle of God is with men”. The assembly is the vessel, and she is luminous. She is bright, but “the lamp thereof is the Lamb”.
JPH In connection with the tabernacle of God being with men, does that word ‘men’ include the personnel of the assembly?
JT It is men, that order of being. It is what God began with in the garden of Eden. He began with men; angels had existed before that. Man is the supreme thought of God, the Lord Himself having become one, a Man.
Ques These men would be in spiritual conditions, do you think, in eternity?
JT I think so. It is abstract. It does not just indicate where they are, or what special characteristic is true of them; they are just men. And, of course, God had in His mind such beings, and the Lord Jesus Christ Himself, that is, God Himself, became Man. What could be greater than that thought?
Ques May I ask a question in regard of Hebrews 2? “In the midst of the assembly will I sing thy praises”. How do you regard the assembly there, femininely or as composed of those who are sons?
JT The assembly is viewed by itself, I would say, in Hebrews 2, “In the midst of the assembly will I sing thy praises”. Then there are other things said there that ought to be read with it, if you would kindly read them, beginning at verse 10.
Rem “For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make perfect the leader of their salvation through sufferings. For both he that sanctifies and those sanctified are all of one; for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren, saying, I will declare thy name to my brethren; in the midst of the assembly will I sing thy praises”.
JT So that we can see what a cluster of great things there is in that passage, and how the idea of the assembly is just what the assembly is itself, taken from its concrete idea at the beginning; what the assembly is; and the Lord is using it. He is using it in that wonderful way, that it is the sphere or vessel of the praises of God Himself. The Lord is the sweet Psalmist of Israel there, we might say. Just what David was in the Old Testament, the Lord is here, “In the midst of the assembly will I sing thy praises”. So that what I am endeavouring to say is that we should dwell on such wonderful things as are indicated there, so as to get the great thoughts of the assembly, and one of the great thoughts is that it is the vessel of the divine praise.
RWS So the appendix in John’s gospel, chapter 21, is so wealthy concerning the millennium, but this appendix seems so wealthy concerning the assembly, even to bringing in what the Spirit and the bride say together.
JT Very good, we are coming on to that. But if we just dwell for a moment on the section in chapter 21 we can see how the assembly is in mind, and what it is, inclusive of the fact that the names of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel are inscribed on it. Israel has its place in relation to it, and therefore it is a millennial thought. It is a glorious thought, and it is as if the Lord would show how He is ending up with glory. That is not the eternal [p. 241] thing, but this particular thought, this matter of the whole of the thousand years.
SMcC May I ask, if in the parallel to this on the earthly side in the Song of Songs and the second book of Psalms, there are certain feminine relations there which will terminate with the millennium?
JT Yes, I would say that. The Old Testament is full of the thought of the millennium.
SMcC The feminine thought will not go through in Israel, but only in the assembly?
JT Well, the feminine thought may go through in Israel, but then we have to settle the question as to how Israel and the nations are to be changed over into the eternal conditions. That is something perhaps that we have to reserve each one for himself, as to how what is flesh and blood properly, as we might say, has to be brought into eternal conditions. That must take place between the two periods; that is to say, between the millennium and the eternal conditions. It must take place there, and God can do it. It is a question of what God can do. It is within His province, for He can do all things, as Job says, “I know that thou canst do everything”. We are to see how this is to be done, because the millennial conditions will surely change; they will surely cease, but still God is pleased to keep them on for a thousand years.
EuR Is it this glorious vessel that alone maintains the distinctive character as bride of Christ and tabernacle of God throughout eternity? All other families are merged in the word ‘men’?
JT I would not say that.
EuR “The tabernacle of God is with men”.
JT Yes, but then that cannot exclude the assembly, because they are men too.
Rem Solomon’s glory seems to prefigure the millennial state of things, whereas the tabernacle is brought in in connection with what [p. 242] is eternal.
JT We have to analyse that, “The tabernacle of God is with men”, and I would think the tabernacle of God there is the assembly itself.
Rem Quite, but I wondered whether the germ of the idea would be in the Old Testament. God dwelling with men is there in the tabernacle system, where God spoke to men from the mercy seat, and the provision is made for God to dwell with men, and for men to draw near to Him.
JT But then we are dealing here with the New Testament, with Revelation 21 and 22, and it says: “The tabernacle of God is with men”. The tabernacle clearly is the assembly, and they are men, themselves. It is not a question of approaching God at all. It is a question of where God is, where He dwells, “The tabernacle of God is with men”. It is where He is, and He is with men.
AED Would you carry the thought of the families over into eternity, “every family in the heavens and on earth is named”?
JT Quite so.
AJG While the tabernacle itself is the assembly, do you regard the men, “the tabernacle of God is with men”, as including those of the assembly and all those who have part in the eternal scene?
JT It is a great general thought here, in verse 3, an abstract idea; “men” is just abstract, and it includes the assembly itself. It would include others too, who are men, and even perhaps angels, but the point is, “the tabernacle of God is with men”.
JC-S The word ‘tabernacle’, I understand, is in the feminine.
JT Well, that would help us in what we are saying.
FJF Is the section from verse 9 the answer to what we have in Thessalonians, when “he shall have come to be glorified in his saints, and wondered at in all that have believed”?
JT Yes, quite. So that I would suggest that we proceed with the examination of the facts of the assembly beginning with verse 15, where it says. “He that spoke with me had a golden reed as a measure, that he might measure the city, and its gates, and its wall”. And then “the city lies foursquare”. All these things are most precious, but they are all linked together and the whole matter is founded, not on Paul, but on the twelve apostles of the Lamb. It is a question of what began at Pentecost; the Lord is dealing with the beginning of the assembly.
HW What do you understand by the length as set over against the breadth? What would the two measurements convey to us?
JT And the height. It is a cube.
HW The length and the breadth are mentioned first, and then height afterward.
JT Well, it is just to bring out that it is a solid idea. It is not a mere shell; it is a solid idea.
HW Would you connect the one with the thought of revelation, and the other with the answer to it?
JT I would take the whole thing together, as one idea. It is a cube, a solid matter.
CAI Would you say a little more as to the point of its not being the assembly in the light of Paul, or with reference to Paul, but the twelve apostles?
JT Well, just because the Lord is pleased to go back to the beginning. What a precious time He had with what He began with! He is dealing with that now, but then I am sure He is not omitting Paul, because Paul comes in later and enlarges everything, and beautifies everything.
Ques Are not the twelve apostles of the Lamb particularly connected with the foundations? Would Paul’s ministry be connected with the superstructure?
[p. 244] JT Well, the interior, too, I would say, the affections.
Ques Would not the substance that is in the city be conveyed to us in the epistle to the Ephesians?
JT Very good; the quality of the saints. So that you have to go back to the beginning of the assembly at Ephesus, and all that was said of it, to bring out the quality of the saints, and how much they were to Christ at that time.
SMcC Is it helpful to see too that in 1 Kings where the heavenly side of the system is more before us in type, in contrast to Chronicles, it is specifically said of the oracle that the breadth and the length and the height are equal. In Chronicles the height is missed out.
JT That would help us to compare the Old Testament with the New. We have something like that here; we have the cube here.
PHH Did you connect Paul’s ministry with the adornment?
JT Yes, quite so, and what is in the interior. In a building we may find something, perhaps, in the external thing, but then what there is in the interior. What places of affections there may be!
PHH Largely taken up with the matter of the precious stones, which are named.
JT They are named-just so. It is all to bring out the preciousness of the matter; the intrinsic value of the whole matter. Everything is measured, and all is perfect; there is nothing imperfect in it. What a great relief it is, when we have so much to do with what is imperfect, and contrary to God! All this is to relieve our souls and make them restful in what we are brought into; we are part of it.
WSS I was thinking how wonderfully this shines out in that way. After all the breakdown that has been referred to in the book, we have this [p. 245] most beautiful description of the assembly to encourage us and make us restful.
JT Very good. So that in the opening chapters, that is, up to chapter 3, there is much to distress although much to encourage too. Here everything is perfect, as if the Lord is saying, ‘Well, let Me show you what is perfect, what I can do, and what I am going to have, for one thousand years I am going to have all this’. And then it is not going to cease, it is going into eternity too. It all belongs to Christ. So the Lord is saying to us, ‘See what I have; what I can do, I have it for Myself too, and I am going to use it for God, for His pleasure and glory’.
AJG Is this the Lord’s answer to Paul’s confidence in Him when he said, “I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep for that day the deposit I have entrusted to him”, 2 Timothy 1: 12.
JT Quite so, “I know whom I have believed”. The Lord would be pleased with that word, and that Paul could say that he knew whom he believed. It means that he knew the Lord Jesus as One he could confide in and trust.
WSS Is what we have here the wonderful positive results of Paul’s ministry and the Spirit’s work?
JT Quite so. The Lord is showing us, telling us even now, this very day, what He is doing, and what He can do, because He is still working at the assembly. The assembly is His masterpiece.
WSS I was thinking of the word of God that has been referred to. Does that bring into view the perfection of the Spirit’s work?
JT Well, quite. The Lord Himself is said to be the Word. His name is called “The Word of God”.
JTS Would this be the complete fulfilment of the Lord’s word. “On this rock I will build my assembly, and hades’ gates shall not prevail against it”, Matthew 16: 18?
JT Exactly. It is in the assembly gospel that He brings that out.
HH Our brother has referred to the gates of hades. Would you say a word as to the gates of the city in this chapter?
JT No doubt the reference is borrowed from the book of Ezekiel. That is to say, the scriptural writers are available to each other. Of course, the Spirit of God is handling everything, overseeing everything, so that what we get in Ezekiel works out here. All is perfect, and the gates would be the entry into the things, and so forth. It is the way in. All is perfect, beautiful and suggestive, and full of instruction for our minds. This wonderful book is intended for our minds. It is that which God gave to Christ to show to His bondmen things which must shortly take place. It says, “He signified it, sending by his angel, to his bondman John, who testified the word of God, and the testimony of Jesus Christ, all things that he saw”. Then, at the end of the chapter, He tells John what to write, so that our minds are much in view in this wonderful book, and it is most precious that the Lord is pleased to devote the whole thing to us; He is thinking of us at the present time.
WSS You were going to refer to the verse, “And the Spirit and the bride say, Come”?
JT Well, we have come to that now, and we can touch on it. The Lord is intimating that He is thinking of them, and so He says in verse 16, “I Jesus”. It is beautiful, and I was thinking of these personal features; first of Jesus Himself, and then here also John; “I, John”. It is the persons, “I Jesus have sent mine [p. 251] angel to testify these things to you in the assemblies. I am the root and offspring of David, the bright and morning star. And the Spirit and the bride say, Come”. That is to say, the bride is with the Spirit. She is great enough, as it were, to be in companionship with a divine Person, and both are saying the same thing. The Spirit says it and she says it. It is to bring out, I think, the peculiar place the assembly has, that she is a companion, in that sense, of a divine Person, and a divine Person is a companion to her. “The Spirit and the bride say, Come”.
JTJr Do we need to take account of the assembly in Corinthians and also in Ephesians, to arrive at this thought as to the Spirit and the bride saying, “Come”?
JT Well, quite so. Corinthians is the local idea, the truth of the assembly worked out locally; whereas Ephesians is the whole idea, the whole idea of the assembly. In that epistle it says: “Christ also loved the assembly, and has delivered himself up for it”.
Ques I suppose the thought of what is bridal in character is not absent from the local idea? Paul says to the Corinthians. “I have espoused you unto one man, to present you a chaste virgin to Christ”. Does not that involve what is bridal in character?
JT Quite so. The Lord, as it were, would afford to Paul that advantage in dealing with the assembly, because he had to do with it in all its parts, in all its forms.
WC Is that why He puts it in this way, “to testify these things to you in the assemblies”, rather than the assembly as a whole? It has to work out in the local position.
JT It is a local matter. The Lord is recognizing it by affording Paul, or any one of us, an opportunity to work things out, in love for the assembly, and to be set for the promotion of the truth of the assembly, because the Lord is so taken up with it; it is so dear to [p. 248] Him.
PHH Is it of significance that the title here is “the Spirit”? “And the Spirit and the bride say, Come”. In Genesis 24, is it more perhaps the service of the Spirit, typically, but here, is it more emphatically His Person? The Spirit and the bride are together.
JT Well, quite so. It is the Spirit Himself; He is a divine Person under that term. That is His name, you might say, not “the Spirit of God” but just “the Spirit”. That is His name in the same way as we might say the Father and the Son.
SMcC Would you say what, in your mind, is the distinctive feature in connection with what is feminine in regard of the assembly?
JT Well, of course, the first idea of it is in Eve. Adam was alone for a while, however long we cannot say, a very few hours perhaps, and then Eve had to come in. At first, when the thought of Man is mentioned, Eve is included, as if God said, I want the full thought; so that the full thought is in Eve added. So that the word is, “but as for Adam, he found no helpmate, his like”, and then God undertook to make up what was needed. So that he says to Jehovah, “This time it is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh: this shall be called Woman [Ishshah], because this was taken out of a man [Ish]”. That is the way it is presented, because she is taken out of Ish. The two ideas must therefore be there; it is as if God would say, ‘They must be there, and they are there. They are in the very design I began with’. They are there, because they both are included in the word Man in verse 26 of Genesis 1.
Rem In Genesis 5 it says, “In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him. Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created”.
JT So that the word “Adam” covers both, just as “the Christ” in 1 Corinthians 12: 12: “So also is the Christ”.
CMM Would “Come” include the rapture and the appearing?
JT I think the appearing. That is the thought that is generally in the Scriptures, but there is what He has in the transaction, “The Lord himself, with an assembling shout, with archangel’s voice and with trump of God, shall descend from heaven; and the dead in Christ shall rise first”, and so forth. What the Lord Himself has in the thing must be considered. What a joy He has in the transaction, which has in view His appearing, and His saints with Him.
RWS Would it be too familiar to address the Holy Spirit as “Spirit”?
JT I think it would. It is better to say ‘the Holy Spirit’ or ‘the Spirit’, “The Spirit and the bride”; that is what we have here. “The Spirit and the bride say, Come”.
HH Would you apply what you have said as to the appearing, also to John 14? It would hardly be the rapture there, would it?
JT When the Lord says, “I am coming again and shall receive you to myself” (John 14: 3), that is the rapture.
FJF Would it be right to say that this beautiful picture is Eve seen in her administrative character? You were saying that this is a perfect picture, and is that also seen in what the woman was, Ishshah? She was perfect, and this is also perfect, but it is, as you are saying, administrative in the millennium. Is that right?
J.T. That is right!
Rem Would you say a word as to the way the Lord presents Himself: “I Jesus ... I am the root and offspring of David”?
JT Well, it is remarkable that David is brought into it. It shows that David represents certain perfections in the Scriptures; things are presented perfectly. David is the supreme thought in that sense, and the Lord is the Root of David and the Offspring. That is to say, Christ is a divine Person speaking thus, but He is the Offspring of David.
AM Does David represent lovability?
JT Just so; the word would mean that, and his lovableness is involved in what is said. David means that.
Rem He is a man after God’s own heart.
JT Quite so. He is a beautiful person, a most delightful person. That was the idea, and, of course, that must apply to Christ in His delightfulness; so that we are never tired of speaking of the Lord Jesus. As it says, “the Lord Jesus, in the night in which he was delivered up, took bread”, “The Lord Jesus”. Let us say that.
Ques Is verse 17 responsive to the presentation of Christ in verse 16? It begins with the word ‘And’. There is the emphatic presentation of Christ twice in verse 16. “I Jesus”, and then “I am the root and offspring of David”, and then it goes on, “And the Spirit and the bride say, Come”.
JT Well, quite.
HPW Is there a very precious touch here as to the Lord Himself? There are three calls, “Come”, “The Spirit and the bride”, then “him that hears” and then “him that is athirst”, and then it adds, “he that will let him take the water of life freely”. It is as if there is an unchanging attitude in this blessed adorable Person.
JT You almost wonder about the whole paragraph. We begin with “I Jesus”. It is a most touching expression, and the Lord is pleased to use it of Himself, speaking, as it were, in a personal way to us. Then, what He says is, “I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify these things to you in the assemblies. I am the root and offspring of David, the bright and morning star. And the Spirit and the bride say, Come”. Well, that is, I would think, the saints with the Spirit desiring the Lord to come. It is their desire expressed that the Lord should come, I would like to get what is in your mind fully.
HPW Well, it goes on to say, “let him that hears say, Come”, as if that was another class. Then “let him that is athirst come” and then, as if there was an unchanging attitude in Christ, “he that will, let him take the water of life freely”, I was only wondering as to whether it does not add to the glory of Christ, and the glory of the assembly, that it ends up with “whosoever will”.
JT As if there would be evangelical material in these last days, and an appeal to hearts as to the Lord’s coming.
WHW In Genesis 2 the Lord in type says what the woman is, but here, in the last chapter of the Bible, He says what He is. Is there an intelligent response on the part of the bride to that, in saying, “Come”? I was wondering if she was here the complete finished product of the Spirit’s work, intelligence as to what Christ is, marking her.
JT You might say that, but still the finished product is not as great as the Lord Himself. They are saying to Him, “Come”. It is the Lord Himself that is in mind. They are saying to Him, “Come”, to that Person, the Lord Jesus.