THE PERSON OF CHRIST AND THE SPIRIT (2)
[p. 22] THE PERSON OF CHRIST AND THE SPIRIT (2)
JT What is in mind now is to look into the matter of new birth. We are therefore treating of the operational side of the truth. We did not treat of that in our consideration of chapter 1, because we were speaking of the Person of the Lord Jesus as set before us there by the Spirit. There is no doubt that the Lord has been with us in this great matter, the greatest matter, we might say, that we could have before us. Now we are undertaking to look into what we may call the operations of the three Persons of the Godhead. The Spirit, specially, is alluded to in the operation of new birth; then the Father Himself, and the Son in verses 35 and 36, the Father having given all to be in the hands of the Son, “The Father loves the Son, and has given all things to be in his hand. He that believes on the Son has life eternal, and he that is not subject to the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides upon him”. In this section, as has been remarked, the subject in the main is eternal life, new birth leading up to it. Yet we have the idea of the Son of man being in heaven, so that we are still speaking of that line and the operational services rendered to us from there, but when we come to the real subject of eternal life, that is to say, formation brought forward in it, we have to see what comes down from heaven, the operations in relation to new birth and eternal life having to do with what is on the earth. This will require much inquiry and perhaps questioning, but what has been remarked I am sure is right, that new birth leading up to eternal life, and eternal life itself, have to do with the operations of the Spirit as here. When we come to chapter 7 it is the glorification of the Son of God [p. 23] so that the Spirit might come down formally, but that is not said here.
SJH Does the thought of the wind blowing where it listeth give an indication of the sovereignty of a divine Person?
JT Certainly, the sovereignty of the Spirit of God.
AR Does verse 2 of Genesis 1 suggest the idea of the operations of the Spirit? It is said that He hovered over the face of the deep.
JT Well, yes, hovering over the face of the deep, though there is not much there in the sense of operations. These are already stated in the fact that in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth; that is the great operational thought of God.
SMcC Is there something in the fact that this matter of new birth comes up with a man that should have known better? He was hindered intellectually in his apprehension of the truth, and therefore the necessity for emphasising the Spirit’s sovereign action in the new birth.
JT Not only that, but he evidently was not a studious man, he was ignorant, really inexcusably ignorant, and I believe that has a great application at the present time. Why should we be ignorant when things are made so plain, and there is so much ministry, large volumes of the Collected Writings and all that? They are available to us, why do we not read them?
SMcC The Lord referred to him as the teacher of Israel.
JT He was the teacher of Israel, and the Lord says, “Thou ... knowest not these things!” He was ignorant really of the truth; he should have known the book of Ezekiel.
CAM In that connection would you say that the work of God had caused him at least to appreciate another teacher in coming to the [p. 24] Lord?
JT Yes, but it is a poor affair that he does not know more than he does. We all are exposed to that sort of thing, we should know what is current, and we should not be saying things that are not right. Not that I am saying a word against Nicodemus beyond what should be said, but he was not like Nathanael, who was a quick learner and did not miss anything; the Lord credited him with it too.
WS Luke in the opening of his gospel refers to himself, when he says, “It has seemed good to me also, accurately acquainted from the origin with all things”.
JT That is very good. Now to get at the real point of the new birth here is of first rate importance. Whether the brethren understand it or not is a question, because it is the Spirit’s operation in a peculiar way. It says that the wind blows where it will; the wind is used as a figure, we have to understand that things are happening that are not always intelligible. The Lord says, “Thou ... canst not tell”. That was not said of Nicodemus only, because in this matter nobody can tell; it is the sovereign action of the Spirit. You cannot just tell exactly what it means, but still it is there.
Ques Would that fit in with the thought you were expressing this morning of mystery? “Thou ... canst not tell”.
JT Well, it does.
SMcC The Lord said to Nicodemus, “Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that which we know, and we bear witness of that which we have seen, and ye receive not our witness”. The Lord is speaking in the dignity of His own intelligence, not as identified with the Jews. There was a matter that had been laid before them, and the Lord says, You do not receive the witness.
JT And I suppose the Lord means there, that He is not simply accusing Nicodemus, but the class [p. 25] that he represented, the Pharisees. He belonged to a characteristic class, as it were.
SMcC The Lord introduces a class that does know. He says, “We”.
EAL We would like to hear more about the new birth. Our natural birth is a birth which has an end in death, while new birth entering into eternal life has no end in death.
JT That is good; only I would not link on what does not end in death so much with new birth. The full thought is eternal life, not new birth, if we are speaking of what does not end in death.
EAL I had in mind what the Lord said in John 17, “And this is the eternal life, that they should know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent”.
JT Well, that is a question of knowing, but there is more than merely knowing about what does not end in death. That is in chapter 10. The Lord says there, in speaking of the sheep, “My Father who has given them to me is greater than all, and no one can seize out of the hand of my Father”. That is the security we have as in the hands of the Father and the Son. The idea conveyed in new birth is better expressed by “born anew”, born entirely afresh, from the top, really. That is to say, an entirely different origin altogether from natural birth.
ANW Judging by the meaning of that word “anew”, which the Lord used, its import should have prevented Nicodemus from making such a suggestion as that a man return to his mother’s womb. It is born anew from an entirely new source, it deals with the source as new entirely.
JT Yes, therefore the subject is very clearly opened up, “There was a man from among the Pharisees, his name Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews; he came to him by night, and said to him, Rabbi,
[p. 26] we know that thou art come a teacher from God, for none can do these signs that thou doest unless God be with him”. Well, that is so far so good, but then the Lord says to him, “Verily, verily”, an expression which occurs about twenty-four times in John’s gospel, “Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except any one”, not simply a man, but any one; “Except any one be born anew he cannot see the kingdom of God”. The point the Lord is making is what a man can see, and then what a man can enter into, whether he can see the kingdom of God, and whether he can enter into it. That is what I feel should guide our minds now; it is a question of the kingdom of God and what the operations here have in mind in that relation.
Ques Was Nicodemus a subject of new birth?
JT What he said was very vague, and shallow. Even in chapter 19 his part is not very brilliant. He and Joseph of Arimathaea are linked together there. Then in chapter 7 he said a word of defence for the Lord, but at the same time there is a lack in him. Over against him Nathanael learned quickly, he took things up and learned them quickly. We should not be ever learning and never coming to the knowledge of the truth.
JHP Would you say a word as to the expression, “Except anyone be born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God”?
JT Why does the Lord allude to that? It is a question of the moral sway of God in these circumstances; that God has to say to all these matters. You must listen to what He has to say; I think that is what is meant without going into it too much. The Lord just touches on it, as if He would say, ‘Nicodemus, you need to see the kingdom of God, and you need to enter into the kingdom of God too’. I think the Lord meant that he really was a subject of the work of God, but a very poor one, a very [p. 27] poor learner; and we might say that we are all in that class, very poor learners.
VCL Would it be in your mind that, with the place the Spirit is gaining in our hearts, this matter of new birth and seeing and entering the kingdom should be much clearer than it has been before?
JT I would say that; much clearer, because we are very hazy; not that I want to be critical of the dear brethren, because I am including myself; we are very hazy about things, and yet there is wonderful instruction available to us. It is remarkable the amount of ministry that the Lord is giving and has been giving all through these times of the revival up till now. There is a great need of those who can lead, who know what to do and what to say, great need everywhere, so that the brethren should not be hazy about things.
Rem Paul says to Timothy, “Think of what I say, for the Lord will give thee understanding in all things”.
JT Just so, “the Lord will give thee understanding”. We are to think on these things, we are to consider them and to consider the ministers, as to whether they are able to say what is right.
VCL Is there any point in the fact that Nicodemus is referring to the Lord’s own signs, and the Lord immediately turns his mind to the Spirit’s operations?
JT Well, the Lord opened up the whole matter, a wonderful opening up of things in relation to the sovereign action of the Spirit; that is what this chapter is. The Lord said to Nicodemus, “The wind blows where it will, and thou hearest its voice, but knowest not whence it comes and where it goes: thus is every one that is born of the Spirit”. Now there are references to three matters; being born of the Spirit and then seeing and entering into the kingdom of God. Then, “Nicodemus answered and [p. 28] said to him. How can these things be?” He was alluding to nature, of course. Jesus answered and said to him, “Thou”; the ‘thou’ is emphatic, “Thou art the teacher of Israel and knowest not these things! Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that which we know, and we bear witness of that which we have seen, and ye receive not our witness. If I have said the earthly things to you, and ye believe not, how, if I say the heavenly things to you, will ye believe?” The Lord here is not dealing only with Nicodemus, He is dealing with his class, the kind of people he is linked with. Now, Nicodemus must think over this matter of heavenly things, and consider what it means, and we can very well do the same. Then in verse 13, “And no one has gone up into [p. 29] heaven, save he who came down out of heaven, the Son of man who is in heaven. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, thus must the Son of man be lifted up, that everyone who believes on him may not perish, but have life eternal”. So that God has reached His great point in eternal life already, in this verse. At the same time it is a question of the Son of man going up into heaven, and being in heaven, and what could Nicodemus say about that? What can we say about it, because it is a mysterious thing, it is a mystery, that the Lord should be in heaven as the Son of man, and yet He is here on earth.
SJH Would not the fact that the wind has blown our way accelerate our ability to learn more quickly? These wonderful things as to the Holy Spirit and the current ministry, have come our way, and they are really ours. The wind blows where it will, and many have not heard it, apparently, but we have, and one delights in it, that it is a sovereign matter of the Spirit of God.
JT Now we have to just touch on things and move on. It says, “And no one has gone up into heaven, save he who came down out of heaven, the Son of man who is in heaven”. That is a mysterious thing that the Lord could say that of Himself. We have to understand that there is mystery attached to His Person. He could say that He was the Son of man in heaven and yet He was here on earth, talking to Nicodemus.
SMcC In that connection it has been said questioningly sometimes in regard to this matter of addressing the Spirit. How can we address the Spirit, a Person within us? Is that not putting limits on a divine Person? We cannot limit Him to just what He is as in us.
JT Just so; and so when the Lord was here, you could not speak of Him or to Him as you would speak to an ordinary man, because you could not fathom what was there. The same is true now, the presence of the Spirit of God is unfathomable, we cannot understand it. People around us do not understand what we are talking about, they are outside of it; but we have light and I am sure that the Lord is pleased to see us here this afternoon and all interested.
AR The Spirit of God is here objectively and subjectively at the same time, is He not?
JT Well, quite so; He can be viewed objectively, as you can speak of anybody objectively at a distance from you. You can apprehend Him and speak of Him in that objective way.
RP Would you say something as to “that which is born of the Spirit is spirit”?
JT It would show that there is a wonderful character of operations going on here on earth just now. Presently it will cease when the dispensation ceases, but there is something going on in the assembly now that we can name as of the Spirit, of which we can say that it is spirit. “That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit”. We can name it. We might say that the word ‘spirit’ applies to nearly everybody in this room.
FNW In the preceding chapter the Lord did not trust Himself to them; but does this matter of spirit, “that which is born of the Spirit is spirit”, establish a trustworthy base upon which these other things can be built?
JT The Lord could not trust them, because the idea of spirit was not there; there was just ignorance as to all that was going on, but Nicodemus was not like that, there was something in him that the Lord could address as spirit. I believe He appreciated Nicodemus in that sense. So that he is seen again in chapter 7, and he goes right through to chapter 19.
FC Do you think he was hindered because he was not ready to leave the Sanhedrim, he was not ready to leave his religious position?
JT Just so, but still there was something in him. He represents a class of people who are not against us or the truth; indeed there is something in them that indicates that God is working with them, and we have to be very patient with them, so that they may come to light at last. Nicodemus did come into the light at last, in chapter 19.
AB Elisha asks for a double portion of Elijah’s spirit, I wondered whether that would bear on what has been said about the Spirit being within us and alongside of us?
JT Elisha wanted to get a good supply of the spirit of Elijah, and Elijah said, “If thou see me when I am taken from thee, it shall be so to thee”. You have to be alert to get this.
Ques The Lord speaks first of seeing, then of entering into the kingdom of God. Would that suggest movement in intelligence?
JT [p. 31] Seeing is of course an action of the eye, and entering is an action of the mind. Unless one is born anew he has no sight at all, he does not see anything. But then he must be born of water and of Spirit to enter into the kingdom of God. There are the two things, water and Spirit. Born of water is a sort of negative or cleansing idea and of the Spirit is a positive idea, meaning that new birth has taken place and there is the sense of being in spirit, as the Lord says, “that which is born of the Spirit is spirit”. That is what we want to get at, whether we are all in this concrete thing here today. It is the idea of the Spirit given to this one and that one. Perhaps everybody here today has the Spirit, but if not he may be born anew. We are therefore dealing with positive things this afternoon.
SMcC Does “That which is born of the Spirit is spirit”, involve a change of heart? I was thinking of your allusion to Ezekiel 36.
JT The word there is “I will give you a new heart”. It is to that the Lord alludes when He says to Nicodemus, “Thou art the teacher of Israel and knowest not these things!” Nicodemus ought to have known these things.
GW Do you think Nathanael as having come from Cana of Galilee would be characterised by having witnessed the glory the Lord had displayed in that place? It says at the end of the gospel that Nathanael was of Cana and that is where the Lord manifested His glory. I am endeavouring to link it on with what you said about Nathanael as a quick learner, and connecting it with the glory and the Spirit’s operations.
JT Nathanael became an apostle, you know, he became an apostle in the Lord’s ministry, he became quite a distinguished man, but Nicodemus did not. The need for those who lead is very great. Nathanael [p. 32] began to lead; he was one of the seven that went with Peter going to fish, but he became a useful man afterwards. The Lord said to Nicodemus, “We speak that which we know”, and the point is that we should get to know things and convey them to others, because there is so much need of teaching.
JHP Is there the thought of each divine Person operating sovereignly in this chapter? First the Spirit, as typified in the wind, and then in verse 13, “he who came down out of heaven”, and then in verse 16, “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only-begotten Son”. Is there a progressive suggestion in that way?
JT That is right. The three divine Persons are seen operating here. We are dealing with the operational side now, and the point is that eternal life comes into view. The Lord Himself speaks of it but He says, God; that “God so loved the world”. In saying that, He is speaking about eternal life.
Ques What is the difference between being born of the Spirit, and the Spirit coming upon them in Acts 19?
JT The Spirit coming upon us, is when we get sealed. It is when you get the Spirit that the Spirit comes upon you. Nicodemus had not got thus far clearly.
Ques Would you preach about being born of the Spirit in the gospel?
JT I would say that in some sense you must, I would put it to people who were listening to the truth. You must see to it that you are born anew. It is a good question to raise with people, are they born again? But with that you want to be sure they have the Spirit too; you want to raise the question. Are you sealed with the Spirit?
Rem Paul says, in Acts 19, “Did ye receive the Holy Spirit?”
JT Just so, and they said they did not know the Spirit was there at all; they did not know the Spirit was being given.
JHP Is it significant that the reference to life eternal comes after all three divine Persons have been referred to as operating?
JT I think, on the whole that it is the objective presentation of the subject of eternal life in this section. When we come to chapter 6 we get the subjective side of things, because it is a question of what comes down from heaven; “the bread of God is he who comes down out of heaven”. Here we have the actual operations of the three Persons in the objective sense. We have to go to chapter 6 to get the real thought of eternal life as down here in the sense of the bread of God coming down from heaven.
SM The question of believing enters in here, does it not? “He that believes”.
JT Yes. The principle running through John’s gospel is faith, “Why do you not believe me?” the Lord says. We are prone to be just literal in our conversations, and remarks, and questions.
LLP Would the point of believing be stressed by the fact that in the passage read there is a penalty for unbelief?
JT In verses 35 and 36, you mean. “The Father loves the Son, and has given all things to be in his hand. He that believes on the Son has life eternal, and he that is not subject to the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides upon him”. It is a terrible thing that comes out there, and it is in connection with things being given into the hands of the Son by the Father. This question comes up, that a man may not be subject to the Son and hence not have eternal life at all, and in that case the wrath of God abides on him, one of the most solemn things in the [p. 34] whole book.
VCL Is it right to say that those who are born again shall surely receive the Holy Spirit from the Father, because of this being the Spirit’s dispensation?
JT Quite so. Some say, that there will be people who are the subjects of the work of God in the present period, who will not get the Spirit at all, and will not come into the assembly, I do not think that is so. While the Spirit is here every person who is the subject of the work of God will come into the assembly. It is a very comforting thought.