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MAN (11)

JT The thought is before us of increasing the time on our subject of Man to extend to another year. We began with Genesis 1 and went through to the end of the book, finishing with Jacob. Then we went on to David and Samuel. But with the extension of our time we can go more thoroughly into the subject and for this reason it has been thought well to return to Exodus. The passages before us now enlarge on Moses, who peculiarly represents the subject before us. He has a great place in the Scriptures, especially as the writer of the first five books of the Bible; so it is hoped that we shall follow up the passages read carefully and profitably.

S W. Have you in mind that Moses was the great mediator, thinking of the Man Christ Jesus: “One mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus”? 1 Timothy 2:5.

JT One had thought of that. We have Moses here as a babe and then as a full grown man and then as suffering affliction with the people of God.

CAM Would the three stages you mention be the way that manhood develops in us?

JT Quite; and all that the first chapter deals with leads up especially to chapter 2 which we read. It begins with “A man of the house of Levi”. That is to say, the full idea of the nation or family is set out in a tribal sense; the tribes of Israel. And Moses fully represents that idea, which becomes a great feature of the subject before us and runs on to the last book of the Bible, mention being made of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel in Revelation 21.

FHL The fact that the parents are not mentioned by name but simply that they were of the tribe of Levi, would show that the emphasis is thrown on the ^[p. 184] child Moses, would it not? The names of the parents are not mentioned until chapter 6.

JT Yes; so that we begin with his babehood, what he derived from his parents; and then in course of time he grows into manhood and takes on his brother Aaron who is associated with him in the prophetic word. Aaron was three years older than Moses so that Moses does not exactly represent family office because Aaron was older than he. At the same time Moses took precedence of Aaron in the prophetic ministry.

ANW At least six times, I think, he is called “the man of God”. Does not that enforce the matter of manhood very strongly in Moses?

JT I think it would and also his relation to the prophetic ministry. The brothers were both linked up with it, but though Aaron was the older, Moses took precedence of Aaron.

JTJr So that Aaron’s birth is not noticed in the same way as that of Moses.

JT He comes in very informally, whereas the birth of Moses is very formal We ought to look at every brother in that way, especially those engaged in any way in the service of God, that they are to be regarded formally as calling attention to their importance, the importance which God gives them. It is very important that everyone should understand this.

WWM When Stephen refers to Moses he says that he was exceedingly lovely. His parents understood something of that, did they not?

JT Quite so; and, as has already been remarked, he later had a most distinguished place in the service of God. I do not know of any other excepting the Lord Himself or Paul that had such a distinguished place as Moses.

Rem That would be confirmed in Deuteronomy 18, where it says, “Jehovah said unto me ... A prophet will I raise up unto them from among their ^[p. 185] brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him” Deuteronomy 18:17,18.

JT That helps to show the importance of Moses.

RWS You mean that with those whom the Lord is going to use to serve His people He has in mind their background, He goes up-stream as you have often said, to secure the right product for the testimony. Does that usually apply, that the Lord looks a long way ahead to secure the right parentage and other things of import?

JT I am certain that is true; that is why I just stressed the idea of such persons being taken account of formally.

TNW At the point when Aaron spoke against Moses the word is, “But the man Moses was very meek, above all men that were upon the face of the earth”, Numbers 12:3.

JT Quite so, there is a word in that for every one of us here, brothers and sisters alike. It might be remarked that the Lord is encouraging us with the thought of sisters attending such meetings as these; the time was when they were excluded, especially in Europe, but God has overruled that and I believe the thought is prospering.

EAL The meekness of Moses would not prevent him from standing in the presence of Pharaoh; he was very bold in his presence.

JT Quite so, God was with him.

WWM Do you think that the discernment of the parents of Moses in seeing the loveliness of the child should be the attitude of all parents in relation to their children? They should have in mind whether or not they are to be fair to God.

JT Quite so. We may be taken up with making them fair to men, but the point you make is that they are to be fair to God.

^[p. 186] WWM And that should be the attitude of mind and desire of parents for their children.

JT Yes, quite so; but it is very rare that persons put God before men for their children.

ANW I am impressed that you refer to the matter as formal in connection with the sisters, because it struck me much that Phoebe is said to be “minister of the assembly which is in Cenchrea”, Romans 16:1.

ABP Do the women in the previous chapter have a part in this? The midwives apparently were instrumental in preserving the features of manhood.

JT I would say that, and it links on with this chapter which is one of the most important of the whole book because of the care expended on the babe Moses.

JTJr So that the feminine side is stressed in this chapter: as well as the mother there are the sister and Pharaoh’s daughter. That would strengthen what you said about the sisters being at these meetings.

JT Just so; it has been spoken of many times now and was first brought up at Bristol last year, and I believe God is prospering it.

AR It is remarkable that it says of Pharaoh’s daughter that she had compassion on Moses; she became his saviour.

JT She really risked her own reputation I would think in extending her care to a young child of the Hebrews, because it was contrary to the law; but she risked that, you might say that she risked her life.

DMacd She is the one who names Moses; the parents did not name him.

JT Quite right, it was Pharaoh’s daughter that called his name Moses.

ANW The name evidently has the meaning ‘drawn out’, which was, I suppose, the way he was brought into safety.

FNW Does this chapter link on with Luke 18, the place that babes have in God’s thoughts of man?

It says in that interesting reference, “And they brought to him also infants that he might touch them”, Luke 18:15 as if the Lord was very concerned as to what would be for God even in these babes.

JT Showing how important it is to look after the children, whoever may do it, even if it is not the parents. God takes account of the children because they are His; He has prior rights to them. It is not such a long time since brethren were hardly free to baptize children, the idea of baptism was falsely apprehended.

TVD The circumstances surrounding the birth of Moses were extraordinary, which was true also of the birth of the Lord Jesus.

AR This matter of household baptism comes into Paul’s ministry, does it not?

JT It is worth while mentioning that. The idea is that the household is to be baptized, the household, not simply the believer, but the household. Baptism refers to the household; it says of the jailer that “he ... was baptized, he and all his straightway”, Acts 16:33 So Paul said to him, “Thou shalt be saved, thou and thy house”.

SCM The word child seems to have a prominent place in this chapter as though there would be a small beginning, but he would become prominent later.

JT It would show what we sometimes say, that the child is father of the man. We have to begin with the child, the character begins there.

SCM So that the nursing period is a very important part of the child’s life. Mephibosheth was dropped by his nurse and he became lame. How important that care should be taken in bringing up children!

ABP Does Moses’ responsibility seem to begin when he was grown? Up to verse 18 everything is done for him but in verse 11 it says, “It came to pass ... when Moses was grown, that he went out to his brethren”.

JT Yes, and he looked on their burdens; he was not selfish.

ABP You mean that he had care for his brethren as well as observation?

JT Quite so.

CAM Do you mean that if Moses was to be furnished to write the beginning of the Bible it would be according to God that he should be prepared for this service from the very commencement of his history? His very beginnings would be such, under the orderings of God, that if he was going to write, for instance, as to Levi and his origin, or as to Noah and the waters of baptism, he would have really come to know these things in his own soul’s experiences.

JT It is remarkable too that Pharaoh’s daughter comes into it so importantly, as if God were in that peculiarly. It says, “And the daughter of Pharaoh went down to bathe in the river; and her maids went along by the river’s side. And she saw the ark in the midst of the sedge, and sent her handmaid and fetched it. And she opened it, and saw the child, and behold, the boy wept”. Now I think that is very touching, everybody should feel that; the allusion is undoubtedly to sufferings, and I would say the sufferings of Christ. There was suffering involved in it, for the babe wept, a remarkable thing spiritually; Pharaoh’s daughter saw that he wept.

CAM Linking that on with what you said about her risking her life, she really forgot herself in her feelings for him.

JTJr It was something in the government that could be affected, if Pharaoh’s daughter could be regarded as part of the government. We can, I suppose, expect that some element in the government may be affected by such a thing as the suffering of ^[p. 189] the saints.

FSC It says in regard to Noah and the ark that eight souls were saved by water; and so Moses here is saved by water.

JT Quite so, and there is an allusion in it to baptism, for baptism saves us; that is what came to the minds of the brethren some years back, that baptism saves us. We have to understand that.

Ques Would smiting the Egyptian correspond to baptism? Moses evidently had a moral judgment of the world, and then he was prepared to leave it.

JT Just so; he killed the man; we do not understand from that that he was a murderer, he had good reason for it.

L W. Stephen, in Acts 7, refers to this portion of the life of Moses. He says, “In which time Moses was born, and was exceedingly lovely, who was nourished three months in the house of his father. And when he was cast out, the daughter of Pharaoh took him up, and brought him up for herself to be for a son. And Moses was instructed in all the wisdom of the Egyptians, and he was mighty in his words and deeds. And when a period of forty years was fulfilled to him, it came into his heart to look upon his brethren, the sons of Israel”, Acts 7:23.

JT That shows that he had qualities which could be used in the service of God. The question is whether we are all here on that line today, as having the compassions of God for each other.

GH I would like to hear a little more about the government being affected by suffering.

JTJr Well, I was connecting Pharaoh’s daughter with the government; in that way she might suggest an element in the government that would be affected by suffering; if there is suffering amongst us and it comes before ^[p. 190] the government, they may be affected by it. I was thinking of the union matter here, that some of our brethren have been suffering; and if the knowledge of the suffering comes to certain ones in.

the government they may be affected by it. Indeed the matter was stated to us in that way by competent authority, that it is that kind of thing that would affect the judges.

JT The question is whether she had a place in the government. She took liberties at any rate; she took the liberty of the daughter of Pharaoh; that is what belongs to royal families, that their children have liberties that others have not.

CAM In that connection Pharaoh’s daughter in Solomon’s day was an important factor in the place of influence, was she not? That would support what has just been said, that she must have been a very influential person.

DP We need faith and wisdom to move in relation to laws hostile to the saints that are enacted by the governments, do we not?

JT We are here this afternoon that we should get wisdom; as it says in James, “If anyone of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all freely and reproaches not”, James 1:5. That is a word for us now.

Ques And is it not a comfort that Moses, of whom you spoke as a type of the Lord, was ready to take on the brethren’s burdens? He went out and looked on their burdens, he was prepared to suffer affliction with the people of God. The Lord is suffering with us, is He not?

JT So that Moses becomes a type of the Lord Jesus, as you mentioned, and it is for everyone, brothers and sisters alike, to take on this matter of helping each other, of regarding our brethren.

RWS And doing it every day, would you say? I notice here that as he goes out to look upon their burdens he sees what is needed and does it, then. He goes out again on the second day and sees something else that is needed to be done. He is available every day to serve, is ^[p. 191] he not?

JT But he looked this way and that way before he did it, showing that he was careful, that we are not to be careless in what we are doing.

RWS You mean that you commend that?

JT Certainly; God does not reprove him, God does not rebuke him.

RWS And he hid the man in the sand; he completes the matter you would say?

JT Well, quite so, it would look as if he had the right to do it.

AR He is like God Himself in His care for the people, as it says in verse 25, “God looked upon the children of Israel, and God acknowledged them”.

JTJr God was going to kill all the Egyptians, was he not? Moses was beginning what was going to be finished later on.

CAM Hiding an Egyptian in the sand is not the same as hiding Moses in the water. It says, “When she could no longer hide him, she took for him an ark of reeds”. That was a precious hiding.

SW Would you say that it is one matter to have a judgment in relation to the Egyptian, but it is another matter to have him put out of sight?

JT Well, yes; but as has already been remarked, God was going to destroy them all. It was a tremendous thing that happened in Egypt.

FNW Stephen says of Moses at this point, “For he thought that his brethren would understand that God by his hand was giving them deliverance”, Acts 7:25.

JHE Would Moses’ mother in nursing him in his early life be like the assembly nourishing the saints and the children of the saints so that they will grow up here in relation to the testimony?

JT Quite so, caring for them not simply because they are our own children, but because of what they are to be for God; we take them up on that ground.

JHE ^[p. 192] And in that sense there is salvation in the assembly, is there not?

JT That is another thing that has come out in the last fifty years, the idea of salvation being in the assembly. I do not know that it is fully understood yet, but as it came out it became a great help to the brethren.

JTJr The young people like to be amongst the brethren, I think.

JT I think so too; they do not want to keep away from the brethren so far as I can see. It is a good sign when you look around and see young people keeping company with the elder brethren.

AR At the end of Acts 2 it says that the Lord added daily to the assembly those that were to be saved.

JT Yes, such as were to be saved, that is, it is the mind of God that they are to be saved. So that the assembly is properly the home for them.

SCM Pharaoh’s daughter says, “This is one of the Hebrews’ children”, as though he stands out in this way.

JT And then it says, “And his sister said to Pharaoh’s daughter” — notice, his sister, who was probably Miriam — “Shall I go and call thee a wet-nurse of the Hebrew women, that she may nurse the child for thee? And Pharaoh’s daughter said to her, Go. And the damsel went and called the child’s mother. And Pharaoh’s daughter said to her, Take this child away and nurse it for me, and I will give thee thy wages”. She is not treated as a person of very much worth, yet she is of great importance; she is nursing Moses.

SCM What are the wages?

JT It would show that God is no one’s debtor; wages enter into the whole matter. Whatever we do for the brethren we get wages for it, God will not forget to give us ^[p. 193] recompense.

AAT The wages apply to the parents, do they not? The mother was to be paid.

JT Well, she took the ground of being a nurse. Pharaoh’s daughter regarded her in that light.

AAT To make a practical application of it, in baptism the children are handed back to the mother. Do not the parents get wages as they bring them up?

JT Well, it is a question of what they do for God, that is the point. If we baptize our children for God, then we get recompense for it. That is the way I would look at it. God is not hesitant as to wages, He has plenty of things with which to pay; He says, The cattle on a thousand hills are mine. He has plenty of means. We can really do things for God in that light.

S W. Do you not think that Hannah was well recompensed if she lived to see Samuel crown David?

JT She brought him a new coat every year, which is a remarkable thing. How careful she was about her child! She brought him a little coat every year. We have to regard the brethren and how they are growing; we have to watch them and look after the coats suitable for them.

AEW Will you say more as to the assembly’s part in regard to young people, and the idea of manhood coming in? Most of us grow up in assembly conditions, in households that respect the truth of the assembly.

JT We formerly had Sunday schools but they were given up and have never been revived, and now there are more children coming into fellowship than ever before. The assembly is the place for nursing them, they are children that are nursed by the assembly.

ABP Paul refers to himself as a nurse as well as a father in writing to the Thessalonians, who would be his children in the ^[p. 194] faith.

JT Quite so, I am glad you brought that up because the idea of nursing is so important in forming young people.

ANW In Acts 20 Paul calls the elders to him, but in Acts 21 the children also with their parents cluster about him.

JT I suppose Timotheus was one of his most important children: “my true child in faith” 1 Timothy 1:2 he calls him.

JTJr Therefore Timothy is the one to whom Paul speaks about conduct in the house of God, which I suppose he learned from Paul — how to conduct himself in the house of God.

AR Is that why Paul asked Timothy to remain at Ephesus?

JT Very good; that he might enjoin and teach.

RWS What about Moses’ fleeing when Pharaoh hears of the slaying? It says, “And Pharaoh heard of this matter, and sought to slay Moses. But Moses fled from before Pharaoh, and dwelt in the land of Midian. And he sat by the well”.

JT One of the most important things to notice is that “he sat by the well”; he sat by it, showing his attitude, the value of the attitude relating to a well. Spiritually the idea of a well is an immense thing, a place where the saints can be refreshed. That is what you get in a meeting like this really, a place where the saints are nourished and refreshed.

SCM He is not idle by the well, he finds employment and draws water abundantly.

JT That is what the priest’s daughters say of him, they give a good account. And further, it says he sat by the well; it is not a well; it is as if this were the only one. That is the idea spiritually. “And the priest of Midian had seven daughters; and they came and drew water, and filled the troughs, to water their father’s flock. And the shepherds came and drove them away; but Moses rose and helped them, and watered their flock”,

notice that. “And when they came to Reuel their father, he said, Why are ye come so soon today? And they said, An Egyptian delivered us out of the hand of the shepherds, and also drew water abundantly for us, and watered the flock”. He “drew water abundantly”; that is where he is learning, where he is maturing for his great service. But then Reuel says, “Where is he? why then have ye left the man behind?”. The sisters were remiss in this matter and their father had to rebuke and reprove them about it. Moses you might say is maturing for his great service to the people of God; he is showing what kind of man he is, he drew water abundantly and defended the sisters.

ABP Reuel having heard this realised that there was a man somewhere. It is a question now of finding the man, is it not?

JT Just so, and it is the man.

JHE Would the fulness of this be seen in John 4, “Come, see a man”? John 4:29. Such a Man could give living water. These flocks were probably never so refreshed before as when Moses watered them that day.

JT The Lord is in mind, I am sure; Moses is a type of the Lord.

Rem The daughters call Moses an Egyptian, but Reuel calls him a man.

JT There is great profit in the types in the Old Testament; that is where we get nourished — from the well. It is the well, as we were saying. The well of water springs up into everlasting life in John 4; that is the real thing; so that there are the two sides set out in the Bible: getting the types in the Old Testament and the real thing in the New.

SW Would you say that Moses had gained a constitution in refusing what was of Egypt and of Pharaoh’s household, and this constitution is coming out now in that he is able to water ^[p. 196] the flock abundantly?

JT Abundantly; let us dwell upon the word ‘abundantly’.

SCM The same word is used in John 10. These shepherds drive away, but the Lord, the good Shepherd, says, “I am come that they might have life, and might have it abundantly”, John 10:10.

FHN Does the Spirit of Christ as allowed in us enable us to serve the saints in this way after having suffered for them as Moses did?

JT Well, quite so, although I do not suppose many have suffered very much; but there is such a thing as suffering. I am not saying I have known it much, but I know a little bit about it, that suffering goes with serving; it goes with serving the Lord.

ANW It is remarkable that they have to admit that he delivered them. He not only watered the flock, but they have to say, “An Egyptian delivered us out of the hand of the shepherds, and also drew water abundantly for us, and watered the flock”.

JT He did everything well, that is the idea.

JTJr His ability is beginning to show itself; we need to take account of it in brethren when they begin to show ability spiritually; it shows itself in the assembly.

FSC Does this training in Moses’ life bring out the shepherd character?

JT Just so, it shows that Moses had evidently become a real shepherd to shepherd the people of God. He wrote the five books of the Pentateuch as well as serving the saints and delivering them out of Egypt. That is a great thing; one of the greatest things to think of is being delivered out of Egypt.

RWS Was there not a little defect in what he did in the earlier part of the chapter in slaying the Egyptian, because the thing became known and he fled; whereas what he is doing now in relation to the well, that is, the Spirit, I suppose we might say, is done well; he delivers them and draws water abundantly.

^[p. 197] Does that not mean that he is serving better than he had served before? He is improving in his service, he is doing better than he did before because even though he had looked this way and that, the matter became known. It says in verse 14, “Then Moses feared, and said, Surely the matter is known”. But it seems a perfect service in relation to this subsequent happening.

JT So that the sufferings were there and the readiness for sufferings was there. Verse 18 says, “Why are ye come so soon today? And they said, An Egyptian delivered us out of the hand of the shepherds, and also drew water abundantly for us, and watered the flock”; those were good actions. “And he said to his daughters, And where is he? why then have ye left the man behind? Call him, that he may eat bread. And Moses consented to remain with the man; and he gave Moses Zipporah his daughter”. He is his father-in-law now. “And she bore a son, and he called his name Gershom; for he said, I have been a sojourner in a foreign land”. Then the next point of great advantage is that the king of Egypt died. The matter will go forward now that the king of Egypt has died. “And the children of Israel sighed because of the bondage, and cried; and their cry came up to God because of the bondage; and God heard their groaning, and God remembered his covenant with Abraham, with Isaac, and with Jacob; and God looked upon the children of Israel, and God acknowledged them”. So the matter is clear now, and the service of God will begin properly.

FHL Is this all fundamental to the apostle’s word in Hebrews 3 that Moses was faithful “in all his house”? Hebrews 3:5.

JT I would think that, faithful “in all his house”; that is a great point.

AR What have you in your mind in saying the service of God will begin properly here?

JT Well, chapter 3 says, “And Moses tended the flock of Jethro his father-in-law”, Exodus 3:1 — notice it is Jethro now, not Reuel — “the priest of Midian”. The service of God is beginning in this sense. “And he led the flock behind the wilderness, and came to the mountain of God — to Horeb”. The mountain of God is the beginning of everything now, I mean to say it is the place where the service is to be carried on. And then it says, “And the Angel of Jehovah appeared to him”, Exodus 3:1,2. Now this is a new phase of the whole matter when “the Angel of Jehovah appeared to him”; we shall get something done now. And, of course, much was done, because ultimately we have the five books of Moses and all that we have been speaking of in our consideration of this subject.

EEH Is chapter 2 the secret history of Moses, and chapter 3 more the formal history?

JT Yes, more the formal, actual work he had to do, which is so important; and so wonderful that as we undertake to do things God is with us and appears to us. It is one of the most precious things to have the sense that God is watching what you are doing, and appearing to you in some way so that you know Him.

AR Is there some spiritual thought here about the priest of Midian?

JT I think so, the priest of Midian has a spiritual importance; we get it later in Moses’ history.

JTJr The divine approval in the previous chapter is seen in the way things are done, that is, he succeeds in every matter. But now it is God formally coming in to speak to him and to take him up.

JT I think it is very wonderful how it says, “And the Angel of Jehovah appeared to him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a thorn-bush:” Exodus 3:2 — the thorn-bush is a small idea, but the appearing is an immense idea — “and he looked, and behold, the thorn-bush burned with fire, and the thorn-bush was not being consumed”.

^[p. 199] Three times the thorn-bush is mentioned. “And Moses said, Let me now turn aside and see this great sight, why the thorn-bush is not burnt. And Jehovah saw that he turned aside to see”. Jehovah saw; that is, God takes account of us whenever we are moving in His direction — “and God called to him out of the midst of the thorn-bush and said, Moses, Moses! And he said, Here am I. And he said, Draw not nigh hither: loose thy sandals from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground. And he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look at God”, Exodus 3:3 - 6. What a moment it was for Moses! The divine appearance and all that was said to him was so that he might not interfere or be actuated by wrong thoughts or principles; that he might do everything properly and rightly.

WWM It says, “Jehovah saw that he turned aside to see”. God sees when we turn aside to take on His things.

JT So you see the young brothers and sisters, and it is a question of what they are doing. Are they turning aside to be at the meetings? That is the principle of it. God sees what we do and how we are affected.

DP Is Moses now in the full glow of the accumulated knowledge of God that has come down to Abraham and to Isaac and to Jacob, so that he is now ready for a fresh revelation?

JT Well, we want to go on to verse 7. “And Jehovah said, I have seen assuredly the affliction of my people who are in Egypt, and their cry have I heard on account of their taskmasters; for I know their sorrows. And I am come down to deliver them out of the hand of the Egyptians, and to bring them up out of that land unto a good and spacious land, unto a land flowing with milk and honey, unto the place of the Canaanites, and the Hittites, and the Amorites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites. And now behold, the cry of the children of Israel is come unto me; and I have also seen the oppression with which the Egyptians oppress them. And now come, and I will send thee unto Pharaoh, that thou mayest bring forth my people the children of Israel out of Egypt”, Exodus 3:7 - 11.

^[p. 200] These are wonderful remarks, especially for any who have thought of serving the Lord even in the smallest measure; God is taking account of every movement and of where we are so that we can get in touch with Him and His service, and help His people.

WWM Would you say a little more about what the bush represents?

JT Oh, I think smallness; a thorn-bush is not any great thing, still it is great enough to be taken into God’s service.

WWM Moses mentions it in Deuteronomy 33 when he says, “Let the good will of him that dwelt in the bush come upon the head of Joseph”, Deuteronomy 33:16.

JT That is the one we have here, showing that it is well known; “him that dwelt in the bush”; here it is called the thorn-bush. God is there in spite of the smallness of the thing.

WWM So however small we may be as to numbers, yet God is with that which is small but still maintaining things. In the Lord’s word to Philadelphia, He speaks of their having a little strength and not denying His name.

JT Someone has said that the brethren were like squirrels; they run along a path and disappear up a tree, as if they would never appear again. The person who said that has gone, but the brethren are here yet.

^[p. 201] WWM A brother once said that the beasts are going on, the fish are going through, and the birds are going up. He likened that to the saints.

JT Just so. The Lord Jesus went up, a cloud received Him out of the sight of His disciples. Well, where is He? That is the wonderful thing. We speak of the worlds, not of the world, but worlds. Where are they all? Nobody knows where they are. The earth may be the only one with an atmosphere so far as we know, but where the atmosphere is life is.

Rem The Lord cites from this section to prove that there is a resurrection. “I am ... the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob”, Matthew 22:32.

JT Yes, but He has gone up. He led the disciples out as far as to Bethany and then He went up; He lifted up His hands and blessed them, and went up from them, and He is up there yet, though He is coming presently — into the air.

JTJr Have you something more in mind about what up means as you have been speaking about it? It is a physical thought but we should know what is meant by it. What have you been thinking about it?

JT The Lord led the disciples out as far as to Bethany and He lifted up His hands and blessed them, and as He blessed them He was carried up into heaven and a cloud received Him out of their sight. And then we have to go to Paul and see what he experienced. He says, “I know a man in Christ”, not a man only, but a man in Christ, “fourteen years ago ... that he was caught up into paradise” — caught up into paradise! And further that he “heard unspeakable things said which it is not allowed to man to utter. Of such a one I will boast, but of myself I will not boast”, 2 Corinthians 12:5.

AR You have stressed the difference between his being caught up as far as the third heaven, and into paradise. It is a helpful ^[p. 202] distinction.

JHE The Lord says in John 12, “And I, if I be lifted up out of the earth, will draw all to me”, John 12:32. Many quote that verse leaving out the phrase, “out of the earth”, but it is important to put that in.

JT The next thing is what the Lord will do with us. He was lifted up but He is going to take us up. The Lord Himself will come, it says, “with an assembling shout, with archangel’s voice and with trump of God ... then we, the living who remain, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds ... and thus we shall be always with the Lord”, 1 Thessalonians 4:16,17. And so it is not only being caught up, but to be ever with the Lord; and assembly formation is involved in that.

JHE Philippians 3:20 should be helpful. Paul says there that “our commonwealth has its existence in the heavens, from which also we await the Lord Jesus Christ as Saviour, who shall transform our body of humiliation into conformity to his body of glory, according to the working of the power which he has even to subdue all things to himself”, Philippians 3:20 There is finality in those words.

AR I have been wondering about the idea of ascension. It says in Ephesians that He has raised us up together and made us to sit down together in the heavenlies in Christ; but it says of the Lord Jesus that He has ascended far above all heavens.

JT He has gone above all the heavens, one has often thought of that; He has gone above all the heavens; that is, into an uncreated condition. I would call it that. The heavens were created but the uncreated is where God is, and where Christ is.

GH I am not clear about what you said as to Paul going as far as the third heaven, and being caught up into paradise.

JT I was just stressing the word into there. He went as far as the third heaven, but into paradise.

^[p. 203] It refers to some very blessed place and the third heaven refers to altitude; we are going to that altitude and we are going into something — paradise. It is a question of apprehending what paradise means; it is a place of pleasure, supreme pleasure.

Ques In Exodus 24 Jehovah said to Moses, “Come up”, and it says “Moses rose up”, and “Moses went up”; and then it says that “Moses went up to the mountain”, and again it says that “Moses went into the midst of the cloud, and ascended the mountain”, Exodus 24:12 - 15. Is he a type there of the Lord going up?

JT Moses is entitled to all that. He is a type, but he is entitled to it because of the dignity God put upon him.

JHE The queen of Sheba saw the ascent by which Solomon went up to the house of Jehovah.

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