MAN (18)
MAN (18)
JT So far as I know the brethren have been confirmed in the thought that we should continue the subject of Man. We have the New Testament before us now. The gospel by Matthew affords much for thought, especially in view of the assembly. We have been accustomed to consider Matthew as the assembly gospel which I am sure is right; so that we should have the assembly in our minds peculiarly in looking at this book. Much is made of the number of generations in the first chapter; verse 17 reads, “All the generations, therefore, from Abraham to David were fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away of Babylon fourteen generations; and from the carrying away of Babylon unto the Christ, fourteen generations”. The idea of the human race ought to be in mind in thinking of the generations, especially the generations of the saints. The book opens, “Book of the generation of Jesus Christ, Son of David, Son of Abraham”, Matthew 1:1. Son of David is mentioned first, and then Son of Abraham. These great worthies, David and Abraham, are referred to in this gospel. Abraham would suggest the idea of the family and David would bring in the kingdom.
SW Chapter 1 contemplates generations which led up from Abraham to Christ; but is not Christ the progenitor: of a race, so that now the generation of Jesus Christ would link on with the saints?
JT All proceed from Him; it gives man a greater place than in the book of Genesis. “Thus also in the Christ all shall be made alive”, 1 Corinthians 15:22.
ABP In chapter 5, which we have read, the race seems to be subdivided into classifications of groups of persons who bear certain characteristics.
[p. 311] The Lord began His discourse by speaking of the poor in spirit, and those that mourn, and so on. Would these be persons that feel the chaos that has come into the human race and have overcome in these chaotic conditions?
JT That is good; I think that we should consider the continents into which the physical earth has been divided; the continents such as Europe and Asia and so forth, including America, and see the way God has ordered and divided things according to His wisdom.
ABP Do you mean that is an index to the divisions that He has made amongst men?
JT I think so, and if we were to go into the subject carefully we would find that it works out that way.
CAM The kings of the East will be coming into more prominence before long. Is not the confusion of the present time due, in part, to the lack of the recognition of God’s ordering?
JT Yes; in considering the kings of the East we probably should begin with the kingdom of Babylon.
CAM That is a very interesting matter, but it is a large subject, is it not, involving the whole world.
JT “The earth is Jehovah’s” Psalm 24:1 — it belongs to Him.
AR Paul was forbidden by the Holy Spirit to speak the word in Asia; he was to go westward to Macedonia and not into Asia. In Acts 16 the movement was westward.
JT And we are in the west now, we are in the west as viewed from the continental side.
ANW Do you view this great continent as an extension of Europe?
JT Yes; but at the same time it is the west and the continental idea attaches to it. We are to [p. 312] consider the continental feature that God has ordained on the earth.
JC Paul, speaking to the Athenians, says, that God has ordained times and the boundaries of men’s dwellings that they might seek God. Is that in line with what you are saying?
JT Very good.
RWS God gets more out of certain continents than others. I am thinking of what He has received from Europe and that He is getting much from Australasia, and something from America, but He is not getting much from Asia. Is this what you have in mind in emphasizing the continental thought?
JT Yes; if we consider the continent of Asia we have to subdivide that because of Asia Minor where the testimony was established early. But the continent, if considered by itself, has yielded little.
RWS It is noteworthy that God is getting much out of the English-speaking nations, that the prosperity of the assembly is mainly in those countries.
JT All that is ordered of God, I am sure; it is the divine ordering.
ANW Are the predominating millions in Asia being held in reserve by God for His own due time?
JT Just so; it is remarkable how the kingdoms of the earth have been developed in order, such as the Greek and Roman empires, and others which preceded them. God has ordered them, but think what political consequences enter into it all!
Rem The magi came from the east.
ABP Should we have in mind the principle set out in Deuteronomy 32:8? It says, “When the Most High assigned to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the peoples according to the number of the children of Israel” Deuteronomy 32:[p. 313] 8.
JT That is an excellent suggestion because God has the children of Israel in His mind, and their inheritance is to influence and regulate other parts of the earth.
EAL In the western nations the dignity of man and his liberty is upheld more than in Asia. In the east there is not the same dignity attaching to man. Has that been ordered by God for the setting of the assembly?
JT Quite so. God has a right to the nations or any part of them. If He is pleased to inaugurate things relating to Himself, such as christianity, He has a right to do so. We might just rest on that a little, and see where God has placed christianity geographically.
JTJr The word in Daniel is that the heavens rule. I suppose Matthew brings out that the heavens are to rule and christianity is the extension of that.
FNW Is the role of the heavens seen in the reference in the generations in chapter 1 to the period from David to the carrying away of Babylon? Would that be rule in Jerusalem in Israel, first, and then the captivity inaugurating the times of the gentiles and the bringing in of the four great monarchies coming down to our time?
JT Just so; we do well to think of that and to enlarge on this matter of the nations and the relation that christianity has to nations and continents.
RWS What you say about the geographical location of christianity is most illuminating.
AP In Acts 8, Acts 9 and Acts 10 the three sons of Noah, representatively, are brought in in the Ethiopian eunuch, Saul of Tarsus and Cornelius, but no reference is made to the eastern nations such as India, Japan and China.
JT That is just what should be opened up, if possible; China, for example, is not brought in. We [p. 314] must not be merely political but we can see that China is ruled out, which is remarkable.
VCL Later on in this gospel the Lord refers to how much better a man is than a sheep. In the eastern nations the value of the man has deteriorated.
JT Very much so, while the Greek, or general European area, has increased the value of man. Over against this we see deterioration in the peculiar element of Russia.
EAL In Galatians it says, “For ye, as many as have been baptised unto Christ, have put on Christ. For there is no Jew nor Greek; there is no bondman nor freeman; there is no male and female; for ye are all one in Christ Jesus”, Galatians 3:27. Only the two classifications, Jew and Greek, are used. Is it that christianity was limited more or less to a small representation of the human race covered by the terms Jews and Greeks?
JT That is perfectly right. God will help us to come to this and get light as to it.
ABP Is it right to assume that the power of nations which are asserting themselves aggressively will be more or less held in check as long as the church is here?
JT I would think so. God has ordered it that a certain control should exist, both in the north here and in the far south, Australia and New Zealand. There is a certain control with the English-speaking people mainly, and christianity has been established there; it finds more room among the English-speaking people than anywhere on the earth.
ABP This relates to the favourable balance of power which God has ordained?
JT Yes.
JTJr Would it not seem that Satan sought to get into the sphere of government from the beginning? I suppose it is seen now in Russia; Satan [p. 315] would seek to overthrow the authority which God has placed in certain nations which favour christianity.
JT Russia has cast off christianity; it was a christian power at one time. But it has now become an infidel power, which is a very solemn matter and we can count upon God being against that.
AR God is helping in regard to trade unionism in Australia and New Zealand, and we can count upon Him helping us in this country.
JT It is very interesting to see what God is doing. If a matter is not of God it is nothing, but God is doing certain things, and He is doing them in these areas about which we have spoken..
RWS These are God’s prime thoughts, are they not, that the working out of christianity is to be in the assembly? Other things will come in on a lower level after the church goes, but we are now in the presence of His greatest thoughts.
JT The very greatest things are available to us today. “Ye are all one in Christ Jesus”, Galatians 3:28 it says; all is bound up in Christ Jesus.
ANW What has happened in Russia would make it apostate, which is different from the status of the far eastern nations.
FHL The apostle, in 2 Thessalonians, speaks of that which restrains before the man of sin appears. Is this seen in the influence of the English-speaking nations?
JT Just so; but then there is India in the far east, a very great power which is more or less separate from Britain now, but it is a great power and I believe that in a certain sense God is using it on this line.
RWS How do you view the United Nations in this relation, there being a mixture of nominally christian nations with those that are infidel and [p. 316] heathen?
JT The question is, How much is being done? Previous efforts along these lines did not accomplish much.
RWS Should we ask God to make it more effectual?
JT Well, it is a question if we should, or whether God should not take His own way and work among the continents as He always has done. Of course, we are to be thankful for what there is, and make the most of it! but it is among the English-speaking peoples that the work is going on. God is working elsewhere, too, but in His government God is using persons from the English-speaking peoples particularly in view of the assembly.
ABP Would man’s efforts at unity only serve as a background of failure against which Christ’s kingdom will come into evidence?
JT It is artificial, it has failed before and it is failing again.
ANW Does confederacy meet with divine approval?
JT It never does.
ANW The divine Mind is against it.
VCL There is to be agreement amongst the saints. The Lord Jesus said, “If two of you shall agree ...” Matthew 18:19. If assembly manhood is in operation, God may change the history of the nation.
JT Very good.
JHH There is a verse in Jeremiah 50 which says, “At the sound of the taking of Babylon the earth hath quaked, and the cry is heard among the nations”, Jeremiah 50:46. When God is working it may affect the whole earth.
JT God has opened up the west for humanity; He has moved westward and His work extends to the Pacific coast.
CAM The political leagues and associations of men are such that prayer is almost [p. 317] impossible. Their sessions cannot be opened with prayer because some are heathen.
JT That is so; that is a negative remark but very good for it is wise to keep before us that there is nothing for God in that kind of thing. It will come to nothing.
DMacd In certain governments prayer is recognized and resorted to at legislative sessions.
JT It is good to recognize whatever there is of God and we ought to give thanks for it.
Ques Should the general principles of Genesis 11 be accepted? It says (verse 8), “And Jehovah scattered them thence over the face of the whole earth. And they left off building the city. Therefore was its name called Babel; because Jehovah there confounded the language of the whole earth. And Jehovah scattered them thence over the face of the whole earth”, Genesis 11:8,9.
JT That is the principle; God has scattered and divided men into nations and continents. He respects nations and uses them as we could well point out from the Scriptures. The nations are composed of men, and God considers for men.
Rem That would be confirmed when Nebuchadnezzar besieged Tyre and God said that He would pay him wages. He gave him Egypt, we are told in Ezekiel 29.
JT Very good; God ordains the nations; He has divided the human race into nations and He is not giving up that thought. He is going on with it.
SW You were speaking of the far eastern nations being held in reserve. Will they be brought into blessing in the assembly’s day or will it be later?
JT I would keep to what the Scripture says as to the nations. God, having given up Israel, has turned to the nations, but now His work is continuing, to a large degree, among the English-speaking people.
JTJr The word was, “Lo, we turn to the nations”, Acts 13:46.
SW I was thinking of Revelation 21 where it speaks of the heavenly city and goes on to say that the nations shall walk by its light; and the kings of the earth shall bring their glory to it. That will include the eastern nations?
JT Quite so; “the kings of the earth”, Revelation 21:24. The earth is the Lord’s and the fulness of it.
ANW The kingdom gospel prior to the setting up of the millennium could hardly go out to the presently christianised countries. Will it not be to the far eastern nations?
JT I think so.
AR We are exhorted to pray for kings.
JT Just so; and some are not yet giving up christianity publicly, whereas Russia is.
EM Do you not think that one weakness with the nations is that they are not going on with what God is doing at the moment. Zechariah 8:23 says: “Thus saith Jehovah of hosts: In those days shall ten men take hold, out of all languages of the nations, shall even take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you; for we have heard that God is with you”, Zechariah 8:23.
JT Yes, but we must wait for that. In the meantime God is going on with the nations, not with the Jews.
RWS So that God would utilize armies and navies and military might in His own way to protect the testimony in the nations where He has established it.
JT Just so; God has a right to everything on the earth. “The earth is Jehovah’s, and the fulness thereof”, Psalm 24:1. The fulness would mean all that is good and beneficial and usable. God will take certain of the nations on in the millennium, and we are waiting for that. God will do great things in the seventh [p. 319] great day from Adam; God will take it on and there will be wonderful times on the earth.
RWS What impresses me is the great scope of this consideration; how God is using certain nations at the present time and that He has everything available to bring out His perfect ways and thoughts.
JT And where nations have given up what they once had, such as Russia has done, God is against that. Russia was a so-called christian nation at one time, but it is not now; it has given up christianity; it is an infidel nation and God is against that.
JTJr Whereas Matthew brings in the thought of Emmanuel, God with us.
JT Exactly; that is what we have in our chapter, too, God with us; because He is with us. God is with His people and even His people who inhabit such countries of which we have been speaking, God is delighting in and blessing His people, and the nations get a certain benefit from that.
ABP Are the blessings outlined in this chapter the result of God being with us?
JT I would say that, but what are you alluding to particularly?
ABP The Lord refers to what was said of old to the ancients, but He emphasizes what He is now saying: “But I say unto you”.
JT We should also notice verse 13: “Ye are the salt of the earth; but if the salt have become insipid, wherewith shall it be salted? It is no longer fit for anything but to be cast out and to be trodden under foot by men”. That has not happened yet. Christians are still the salt of the earth; there are those who are deriving certain benefits through the saints; so that God is going on with men and will go on with them until the time comes for His judgment upon them.
RWS Certain institutions which relieve human suffering are prevalent in countries where God is [p. 320] feared much more so than in lands where He is ignored and denied.
JT Quite so; we can trace these things and see them working out under God for the benefit of man.
VCL The lines seem to be drawn severely; there has been much attempt to christianise China, but it has not been on the line of the assembly.
JT Conditions in that country are getting worse and worse; they are worse now than ever before.
VCL Is assembly manhood suggested in the salt? It is an effectual preservative. Any nation having the features of the assembly worked out in it can expect greater preservation than any other nation.
JT Quite so, the salt still exists.
RWS Is there a certain kind of kingdom manhood which precedes assembly manhood? Does this chapter bring to light kingdom manhood preparatory to what comes out later in the gospel?
JT Tell us what you mean by kingdom manhood.
RWS Persons who obey; who are subject.
JT Just so; that is the idea of the kingdom, and that must work out from the gospel.
JTJr So we get a prudent man in chapter 7:24, who hears the words of Jesus and does them. That would be a kingdom man.
ABP It says in verse 3 of this chapter, “Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of the heavens”. And again, in verse 10: “Blessed they who are persecuted on account of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of the heavens”. Is that the kind of man to whom God can commit the kingdom?
JT Quite so.
CAM We frequently connect the kingdom with Peter’s line of things. In Acts 10, he is sent to Cornelius; and does he not bring in that kind of manhood there? He tells Cornelius, “I myself also am a man”, Acts 10:26.
[p. 321] and then he speaks of Christ in His manhood here. That came into my mind in connection with kingdom manhood, but would it be right to say that manhood as developed by Paul would be more assembly manhood?
JT Reference is being made to two kinds of manhood — kingdom manhood and assembly manhood, but the true idea of manhood is in Christ, of course, the Man Christ Jesus; manhood is there. The kingdom must come in, in order that there may be subjection and then the assembly is brought in by Paul.
CAM I suppose it was in that way that the thing worked out in the soul of Cornelius. It was the first time he had really heard of true manhood.
JT Just so.
ANW Do not these verses, which are called the beatitudes, set out the principles and laws of the kingdom?
JT Quite so; I suppose we must have the Man first, and then the kingdom to bring in rule, and then we work out from that to the assembly. That is the way the matter works out.
ANW I suppose kingdom manhood is seen in the acceptance of these principles which belong to the kingdom of the heavens. There is no other kingdom which has such principles as these: “Blessed are the poor in spirit ... Blessed they that mourn ... Blessed the meek ... Blessed they who hunger and thirst after righteousness ... Blessed the merciful ... Blessed the pure in heart”. There is only one kingdom governed by such principles.
JT So that we are brought to the idea of manhood, because we must have man for the assembly; the real thought of manhood is seen in the assembly.
AEW And does the principle of selection come in? It says, “But seeing the crowds, he went up into the mountain, and having sat down, his disciples came to him; and, having opened his mouth ...”
[p. 322] It is as though He would not say these things to the crowd.
JT That is good; God can do nothing with the crowd, you must bring in the idea of the kingdom, and then manhood, because man is God’s idea, it is the Man Christ Jesus.
EAL In Matthew 13:13 it says, “For this cause I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear nor understand”, Matthew 13:13.
JT Just so. We have come to the idea of the kingdom, and with that you must have rule, for rule is in the kingdom. So the next thing is to see where the idea of the kingdom is to be found, whether the brethren are coming to it. And that brings in manhood which is God’s great idea: “Let us make man ... and let them have dominion”, Genesis 1:26. That is the idea. And, of course, we must bring in the Man Christ Jesus.
VCL In 1 Corinthians 15:21, it says, “By man came death, by man also resurrection of those that are dead. For as in the Adam all die, thus also in the Christ all shall be made alive”, 1 Corinthians 15:21. From that base Paul seems to build the matter of the kingdom and rule going on to God being all in all. It seems as though the manhood of Christ begins everything for God.
JT Yes; we must have Man first, in Christ, and then the kingdom and then manhood as in the assembly.
ABP In chapter 11 the Lord says, “Come to me, all ye who labour and are burdened, and I will give you rest”, Matthew 11:28. Is He calling material for the kingdom to Himself?
JT I would think that.
ABP Is it not very much like those who were weary under the Saul system and came out to David [p. 323] to the cave of Adullam and he became captain over them?
JT Quite so.
JHH In chapter 16 the Lord says to Peter, “Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona, for flesh and blood has not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in the heavens”, Matthew 16:17. And then He goes on to speak of building the assembly. Do we touch assembly manhood there?
JT Just so; only we will come to that later. But I think the brethren will follow what we are saying about Man to begin with, and then the kingdom to bring in rule, and then making way for the assembly, and again manhood in the assembly, because that is the divine thought.
RWS So that this chapter brings in the first of the seven mountains in this book?
JT Very good, it is a mountain chapter. We should have the idea of the mountains in our minds in arriving at the assembly.
JTJr This mountain runs on to the end of chapter 7 where the Lord speaks of a prudent man and a foolish man. The prudent man would be a subject man and represents kingdom manhood whereas the foolish man would be disobedient: “Whoever therefore hears these my words and does them, I will liken him to a prudent man ... . And every one who hears these my words and does not do them, he shall be likened to a foolish man”, Matthew 7:24,26.
CAM I suppose this mountain would connect with mount Gerizim, on which the six tribes were to stand and bless the people in connection with the coming into the land in Deuteronomy 27. There were two mountains there, one of blessing and the other a mountain of curse. I was thinking that would connect with the prudent and the foolish. Matthew is very definite as to good and evil. We are either prudent or foolish, blessed or cursed.