MAN (28)
[p. 450] MAN (28)
2 Corinthians 10:1 - 18; 2 Corinthians 11:1 - 33; 2 Corinthians 12:1 - 10.
JT The thought of manhood as seen in Paul is in mind.
JTJr The apostle’s frequent allusions to himself in these chapters would bring out certain thoughts of manhood?
JT He was a gifted man; it is a great matter that God has set gift amongst His people.
SCM The apostle alludes to himself as, “I myself, Paul”. The Lord Jesus also said, “It is I myself”, Luke 24:39.
JT It is to emphasise the personage.
SCM With Paul, the “I myself” would be that which was inwrought by the Spirit; he would not refer to himself in a fleshly way but to spiritual formation. It is manhood according to God.
DP The subject of manhood as seen in Paul is very instructive. We get a good lead in Paul.
BHW Would there be a link with Romans 7:25: “I myself with the mind serve God’s law”?
JTJr The apostle is bringing his mind into prominence there.
JT Yes; the mind is an immense thing with God; we have the expression, “the mind of Christ”, 1 Corinthians 2:16 which is a wonderful phrase.
ABP Would you say that in Romans 7 the believer is becoming aware of the spiritual personality that is being formed in him? Here it seems to be personality in the mature sense at the end of the journey.
JLeP Do we have maturity in Paul in this chapter and also in John in Revelation 22:8 where he says, “I, John, was he who heard and saw these things”, Revelation 22:8. The Lord is coming, and he says, “I Jesus”, and “I am the root and offspring of David”, Revelation 22:16. Paul [p. 451] speaks of a man in Christ caught up to the third heaven and into paradise. Are not all these utterances stressing the need of mature spiritual personality in these days, so that we might be ready to be translated to heaven?
JHE It says in our chapter, “For walking in flesh, we do not war according to flesh. For the arms of our warfare are not fleshly, but powerful according to God to the overthrow of strongholds; overthrowing reasonings and every high thing that lifts itself up against the knowledge of God, and leading captive every thought into the obedience of the Christ”, 2 Corinthians 10:3 - 5. Everything is to be settled before the Lord comes. The apostle has in mind to avenge all disobedience.
JT That is in keeping with what we have before us.
AR Is Paul calling attention to himself, and not exactly to his gift; it is more himself, his personality?
JTJr The person is the gift.
AR That is what I thought; he himself is the gift. We are privileged to take account of one and another in that sense, as gifts to the assembly. Personality would be seen in such.
JTJr Do you mean that Paul was a special gift?
AR Yes, and there is gift in the assembly now.
SCM Does that fit in with the beginning of Paul’s history? The Lord said of him, “This man is an elect vessel to me”, Acts 9:15. What Paul says here proves him to be a chosen vessel, and other special gifts to the assembly have proven by their doctrine and manner of life that they were chosen also.
AP Paul acquired his name in Acts 13, where it is said, “But Saul, who also is Paul ...” Acts 13:9. I suppose that the work of God developed in his soul, so that his name was changed.
JT Yes, that is manhood seen in Paul, but there is no reference to what is feminine there; however,
[p. 452] we understand that woman is included in the general thought of man; we must understand that.
FNW There are many brethren here today, and I suppose that all are needed in the testimony; but is it not the divine way to use a special vessel like Paul to help brothers and sisters alike, to develop features of spiritual manhood, thus preparing us for our place in heaven?
JT Yes; brothers and sisters; both are included.
JTJr The apostle had the feminine thought in mind when he said, “I have espoused you unto one man, to present you a chaste virgin to Christ”. The feminine side has in mind what we are as subject to Christ.
WWM One of the greatest expressions that Paul uses has been read here this afternoon: “I know a man in Christ”, 2 Corinthians 12:2. And then he says, later, “I know such a man”. That is the kind of man that we are to think about; the manhood that is developed by the Spirit.
JT Quite so; and it is important to stress that God is including the sisters in the sons. They are sons of God.
EEH When Paul entreats the Corinthians “by the meekness and gentleness of the Christ”, 2 Corinthians 10:1 does he imply that these qualities were formed in himself also? Was he like Christ, in that way? The Lord said, “I am meek and lowly in heart”, Matthew 11:29. Meekness and gentleness were found in Christ, and Paul seems to have taken on these features.
JT Quite so.
AR Paul says, “Ye are all God’s sons by faith in Christ Jesus”, Galatians 3:26. It has been said that we do not fully understand sonship, but I wonder if it is a question of getting more light in our souls about it.
JT Quite so; “Ye are all ... sons”. Thank God for the number of the dear brethren who are here [p. 453] today! I hope everyone will give thanks for it, because it glorifies God. We are all His, who have the Spirit, and we are all sons of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
JTJr You are stressing the thought of the sisters because we might think of manhood as apart from them. Is that what you have in mind?
JT Just so.
JTJr All the Corinthians were in Paul’s mind in the sense that he desired to get them all into these great thoughts as to “a man in Christ”, 2 Corinthians 12:2.
EAL In Matthew 19:6 the Lord says, “So that they are no longer two, but one flesh”, Matthew 19:6. That is quoted from Genesis 2:24. But does it connect with Genesis 1:26, showing how the woman has part in the great thought of man?
JT Quite so.
EEH Will you help as to what is involved in the thought of “a man in Christ”? 2 Corinthians 12:2.
JT It is a wonderful thought; Christ is a Man, of course; He is God, too; a wonderful thing which would cause us to fall down and worship. But this is “in Christ”, and refers to Christ’s present position.
JHE We could only know Christ’s glory by revelation. When Peter said, “Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God”, the Lord told him that “flesh and blood has not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in the heavens”, Matthew 16:17. It was revealed to Peter by the Father.
JT Quite so.
JTJr To confirm what you have been saying as to the feminine side, Paul arriving at Corinth, found “a certain Jew by name Aquila ... and Priscilla his wife”, Acts 18:2. His wife is mentioned as having part in the testimony.
JT That was before us years ago; his wife shared with Aquila in their unique place in the testimony. And that is what we are stressing now,
[p. 454] that the wife, as well as the husband, is to be intelligently in things.
AP In Romans 16 they are referred to as Paul’s “fellow-workmen in Christ Jesus”, Romans 16:3.
JT One of the things that God has asserted recently is the great thought of manhood as inclusive of the woman. It is for us to take note of this, especially the sisters, so that they should fill out the place God has given them.
AR Paul says in Galatians 3:28, “There is no Jew nor Greek; there is no bondman nor freeman; there is no male and female; for ye are all one in Christ Jesus”, Galatians 3:28.
JT That is just the thought, the full truth, “ye are all one in Christ Jesus”.
Rem There is an exercise with some of us, who are younger and have children, as to fathers and mothers getting out to the meetings together and God is helping us in it.
JT I am sure that He is helping us.
Rem In some localities the numbers at the readings and the prayer meetings are reduced somewhat because husbands and wives alternate in getting to the meetings, but it is right that, if possible, both should be out.
EAL When the matter of sisters coming to the care meeting was brought up it was stated that, characteristically, the husband should be there and the wife, if possible. The sisters are to be there supportively, but each brother should be there to participate, if required.
Rem The apostle Peter refers to a husband and wife as fellow heirs of the grace of life. They are to share spiritual things.
JTJr In Ephesians husbands, wives, and children are addressed. They are in the apostle’s mind, so that what you have in mind is to bring the wives into the truth as well as the husbands.
JT [p. 455] I have had that in my mind for many years. When I came into fellowship and was first married it was my exercise that my wife come into the whole matter.
AR And what has been remarked as to husbands, wives, and children precedes the thought that we are all to arrive at the full grown man.
JT Which would include the sisters. It would include everybody in fellowship and having the Spirit.
JTJr There is the matter of knowing. Paul said, “I know a man in Christ”, 2 Corinthians 12:2. Would it not be a question of all of us having that knowledge? Knowing a man in Christ would be a question of spiritual intelligence and experience.
JT Yes. There are many young people here who would do well to take that on fully, for it refers to what can be reached, in measure, by all.
ABP Had conditions developed at Corinth so that manhood, as seen in the apostle, was not appreciated? Would it show that a low state in the saints may lead to a critical attitude toward the features of true manhood?
JT Quite so.
ABP Should we not be looking for the features of God’s work in one another rather than being unduly occupied with what is negative? The positive features which come out in this chapter were being expressed in Paul all the time but the critical persons in Corinth were unaware of it.
JT Very good.
SCM Would the apostle’s reference to the arms of our warfare not being fleshly, but powerful according to God to the overthrow of strongholds, make room for the Spirit, so that spiritual manhood can be formed [p. 456] in the saints?
JT Just so.
RWS In his first epistle the apostle speaks of babes in Christ. He is going on to the full thought of a man in Christ in this epistle.
SW It is evident that the apostle here is speaking of himself as “a man in Christ”. We should know our spiritual capacity. Paul had access to the great realm of things in heaven as caught up there.
AR You have suggested that Paul was caught up as far as the third heaven, meaning that there were limitations, but he was taken as far as the third heaven.
JT Very good; these are great matters, linking us on with heavenly places. I was thinking about Mr. Darby today in relation to this meeting — as to what he would think of what we are saying. I believe he would rejoice with us.
FHL In chapter 5 it says, “If anyone be in Christ, there is a new creation”, 2 Corinthians 5:17. That would be a little different from “a man in Christ” which we get in this chapter, but it would be akin to it.
DMacd The same expression that is used by Paul here, as to being caught up, applies to the assembly. We are to be “caught up together”. Paul was caught up, and we are to be caught up.
JT Quite so; “caught up together”. That includes all — men, women and children, those who have the Spirit. And so we ought to rejoice that we have so many brethren here today from various parts, and a good number of young ones, for, as having the Spirit they belong to the saints of God.
DMacd And they will be caught up, brothers, sisters, and children.
JT Yes; it rejoices our hearts to think that they belong to us and all who have the Spirit will go with us.
Rem It is said that when Paul left Tyre, in Acts 21:5: “But when we had completed the days, we set out and took our journey, all of them accompanying us, with wives and children, till we were out of the city”, Acts 21:[p. 457] 5 And we have them with us today.
JT Very good; of course we would have to distinguish between those who have the Spirit and those who may not have the Spirit. We have to determine whether or not our children have the Spirit.
JTJr It is good to bring all into the realm and influence of divine things, even though they have not the Spirit, so that the young ones here are in a good place.
JT And the wives, too.
JTJr Eve is referred to in chapter 11; Paul has in mind the assembly in the feminine sense as the wife. Eve was deceived, and that was his great fear as to the Corinthians.
JT It was a great comfort to me many years ago, after I came into fellowship, that the wives come into things, too; they come into the truth.
JTJr Your exercise is, therefore, that we should have our wives with us in divine things.
JT Yes; in the truth, and thoroughly with us.
WWM And should it not be an exercise with us all that we should have reading and prayer in our households. We get help there, householdly.
JT I am sure that is important.
WWM The apostle Paul said, in regard to the thorn for the flesh, that the Lord told him, “My grace suffices thee; for my power is perfected in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather boast in my weaknesses, that the power of the Christ may dwell upon me”, 2 Corinthians 12:9. And he also said to the Philippians, “Not that I speak as regards privation, for as to me I have learnt in those circumstances in which I am, to be satisfied in myself”, Philippians 4:11. That would suggest real manhood [p. 458] developed in him.
JT Quite so.
JTJr There is a feminine touch at Philippi. We have Lydia in Acts 16; she is an example of what we are saying as to the feminine side.
RWS Job’s wife was a poor comfort to him. She says, “Dost thou still remain firm in thine integrity? curse God and die. But he said to her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. We have also received good from God, and should we not receive evil? In all this Job did not sin with his lips”, Job 2:9,10. Job’s wife was a foolish woman; and the Spirit of God never mentions her again.
FNW In writing to the Philippians the apostle says, “I ask thee also, true yokefellow, assist them, who have contended along with me in the glad tidings” Philippians 4:3. He refers to women.
JT Very good; I thank God for the whole matter that has come up as to the sisters today, because it is so important.
SW You have in mind that as the sisters take on the features of spiritual manhood the position becomes greatly strengthened and enriched?
JT Indeed, and why should it not be? They can do much, as we could easily point out from the Scriptures if we had time to do so.
EAL There are some brothers who freely circulate from meeting to meeting and are a help. In some cases their wives go with them and they are appreciated as supporting the testimony.
Rem The Lord said to Paul, I have much people in this city.
JT Yes; much people; that would include women as well as men.