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MAN (5)

JT In taking Man for our subject it is not merely to consider him in the purely natural condition in which he may be, but as the subject of divine work. So that Abraham, to whom we have now come, affords much in this sense, God having wrought with him peculiarly. According to chapter 12 He directed him to leave his country, his kindred and his father’s house; and he obeyed, which is a good mark of manhood. Another thing that strikes one as we come to the present chapter is the familiarity he had with God, and yet in a humble and simple way, which is to be followed I am sure by us all. I mean the idea of simplicity and sincerity which the chapter affords to us. It will be noticed that, “Jehovah appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre. And he sat at the tent-door in the heat of the day. And he lifted up his eyes and saw, and behold, three men standing near him. And when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent-door”, showing that he was free inwardly as well as outwardly; “and bowed himself to the earth, and said, Lord, if now I have found favour in thine eyes, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant. Let now a little water be fetched”, and so forth. This opening of the chapter shows the liberty he had with God; he was, as we sometimes use the term, on good terms with God; and it might be added, God was on good terms with him. The incarnation, and the redemption based upon it, brings out all these things, the terms on which we may be with God according to the terms on which He is with us.

WWM Do you think the fact that Abraham was sitting would suggest a state in which Jehovah would be complacent? Would it suggest a restful state in the ^[p. 83] saints?

JT Yes; and he was taking advantage of circumstances which would make his position more comfortable. He was sitting at his tent-door in the heat of the day.

AR Three men are referred to in verse 2 but in verse 3 Abraham says, “Lord”, as if he has one Person particularly in mind. Would that suggest that spirituality marked him?

JT There were three persons and he distinguished one of them as Jehovah, whereas the other two were angels. So that he had spiritual discernment.

AR You spoke about the incarnation which makes all plain to us. Would this visitation be anticipative of it?

JT It would imply that God has come down: ‘God come down, a heavenly Stranger’. (112:2). God Himself has come down, in incarnation. That is what exists now; not then, but now. Incarnation had not then taken place, but it has now, and everything is based upon it.

JHE Would Abraham’s liberty with Jehovah be a state reached as a result of his action in the preceding chapter in regard of circumcision? He would be free of self.

JT Quite so. Circumcision, if taken up according to the epistle to the Colossians, sets us free; we are delivered from the power of the flesh as circumcised.

CAM Would you say something as to how it takes form that we should show our appreciation of such a visit? Abraham suggests a little water, and the consideration for a little rest. How are we enabled to do this service in connection with divine Persons?

JT Well, it is a question of our knowledge of God I would say. God has come in in Christ so that we should know Him and be set free in freedom.

^[p. 84] The incarnation, and redemption accomplished on the basis of it, enables God to give us this privilege, to afford pleasure to divine Persons in such wonderful liberty.

CAM Was it the Lord’s grace in John 4 that gave the woman the opportunity of doing a service for Him?

JT Yes, quite. She had the opportunity to render Him a service. He had said, “Give me to drink”, John 4:7.

CAM Yes, it is wonderful that a divine Person should make it possible for her to serve Him.

JT Quite so; He “sat just as he was at the fountain”, John 4:6. It was Himself, come down in that way.

ANW You spoke of Abraham’s simplicity; is that not seen in the ease with which he can address either the one Person or the three? There is no confusion in his mind; he is as much at ease in addressing the three as in addressing the One.

JT Just so; and so it says, “And he lifted up his eyes and saw, and behold, three men standing near him”. Now the word ‘standing’ there implies that they took up the position deliberately, not casually but deliberately; there is a certain attitude implied in the manner of the standing. And then it goes on, “And when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent-door”, that is to say, he is ready to leave a comfortable position and exert himself; “and bowed himself to the earth”, he discerned what was suitable; “and said, Lord”; he knows what term to use; he is reverential. “If now I have found favour in thine eyes, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant. Let now a little water be fetched, that ye”, the ‘ye’ is the plural, that is to say he quickly turns over to the plural including the other two, and addresses them accordingly; “that ye may wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree. And I will fetch a morsel of bread; and refresh yourselves; after that ye shall pass on; for therefore have ye passed on towards your servant. And they said”,

the three spoke, as it were, “So do as thou hast said”. The passage is perfectly beautiful, and orderly and right in every way.

FHL Are there some features of manhood shining out in the three men, which link up with our subject? I was considering the emphasis on men throughout the chapter; it says, “the men rose up thence”, and so forth. At the beginning of the next chapter it is two angels. Are the features of manhood coming to light here?

JT It is questionable if we should stress features of manhood as seen in the three.

ANW Have you a point in saying that they were angels?

JT No, not much; it is known from the context that they were. But whether the features of manhood exist is a question. If we transfer that question to Abraham, I would say that there is a little discrepancy in what comes out in the chapter, especially the idea of beginning with fifty and coming down to ten and then stopping there in his intercession. Why does he do that? Why does he not speak plainly at first? I think there is a little discrepancy there in Abraham.

FHL In reference to the Lord in John 1 the Baptist says, “There standeth one”, John 1:26 the same idea as here, meaning taking up a position. So also in relation to Laodicea and the thought of One standing there at the door. You were referring to the Lord Jesus in His lowly manhood in John 4, and I wondered if there was anything of that character to be seen here So that Abraham would recognize a divine Person?

JT Quite so, he recognizes a divine Person, clearly. But then when we come down to all the facts in the chapter there are certain discrepancies to ^[p. 86] be noticed in Abraham, a certain want of transparency, something we must avoid at all cost, the lack of transparency.

RWS Will you say more about the discrepancy which you say existed in Abraham?

JT Why did he ask about fifty persons in the city when he was ready to come down to ten? Why did he not explain what he meant? First he asks for fifty, and then he comes down to forty-five, and then he comes down to thirty, and then finally he comes down to ten. All that, I would say, was the want of transparency and simplicity.

Ques I always thought that he came down from fifty to ten because he did not know how many righteous there were in the city. Would you say in that respect that he failed?

JT How do we know he was not thinking of Lot and his wife and his daughters all the time?

Rem I thought that he did not know and that is why he first thought of fifty.

JT But why should he begin with fifty? He should certainly have known if there were fifty righteous persons in the city. Why did he not know?

Rem So that he really should have been aware whether or not there were fifty living near him who were righteous.

JT Why should he not have known? Why did he not have some idea of his neighbours?

JHE Would all this help us that if we are to pray with intelligence we must have facts?

JT And that if we speak to the brethren we are to be transparent in what we are saying.

AR Abraham knew Lot was in Sodom.

JT Yes, and his wife and daughters.

Ques We need help as to the service of God in the assembly as suggested in this matter of ministering ^[p. 87] to the Lord. Is that not a most important feature in our chapter?.

JT Well, Abraham certainly ministered to these heavenly visitors. Let us look at the facts of the case. It says, in verse 6, “And Abraham hastened into the tent to Sarah, and said, Knead quickly three seahs of wheaten flour, and make cakes”. That is a good word, he is directing his wife to do something for the visitors, One of whom is God Himself while the two others are angels. That is quite orderly, I would say.

Ques May I ask a little about this matter of running? It says that he ran and he hastened. He acted with urgency. Why should we come together and sit for a long time at our prayer meetings before we start to pray, and then wait many minutes between prayers? And why should a long time elapse before we start the service at the morning meeting?

JT I do not think that a long time should elapse; I think we should be orderly; and if we have come together to pray, why do we not pray? Someone should do it, it is imperative that someone should. It is not orderly to sit together without praying.

Ques We should not require God to wait. We should not hurry things in an unseemly manner, but I do not think it is orderly to have very long pauses.

JT I quite agree with that. We have to consider the object of our coming together, and do the thing. Many a time it has been pointed out that we come together to break bread; that is what they did at the beginning, on the first day of the week they came together to break bread. It was definite, then why not do it? It should be done without undue delay.

RWS In verse 5 it says, “And I will fetch a morsel of bread; and refresh yourselves; after that ye shall pass on; for therefore have ye passed on towards your servant”.

^[p. 88] Abraham seems to understand that they had come for that very reason, to be served. Is your point that later on he seems to be losing ground, since he starts with fifty; that he is not on as good terms as he is in verse 5?

JT Quite so; when he says in verse 5, “I will fetch a morsel of bread; and refresh yourselves; after that ye shall pass on; for therefore have ye passed on towards your servant”, they say, “So do as thou hast said”; so that he is exactly right there in what he suggests to the three persons. Then the next thing is what Abraham does; he proceeds at once to do the thing. “And Abraham hastened into the tent to Sarah”, that is another thing; Sarah was his wife and it was a household matter, you might say, he directs her what to do. So the matter is perfectly orderly.

Ques Do you include Sarah in the thought of “man” here?

JT Although the woman has certain things to do I would think that here it is the idea of man as such. Abraham is hastening: “Abraham hastened into the tent to Sarah, and said, Knead quickly three seahs of wheaten flour, and make cakes. And Abraham ran to the herd, and took a calf tender and good, and gave it to the attendant; and he hasted to dress it”. Now that is right from his point of view, but I am not sure that Sarah did just what she was told to do. “And they said to him, Where is Sarah thy wife? And he said, Behold, in the tent. And he said, I will certainly return to thee at this time of the year, and behold, Sarah thy wife shall have a son. And Sarah was listening at the tent-door, which was behind him. Now Abraham and Sarah were old and advanced in age: it had ceased to be with Sarah after the manner of women. And Sarah laughed within herself, saying, After I am become old, shall I have pleasure, and my lord old?”

^[p. 89] So far as I can see she has not done what she was directed to do; it does not say that she did.

Ques You mean that at the end of verse 6 she was told to knead three seahs of flour, and it does not say that she did it?

JT That is right; therefore there is a want of manhood there in the sense of obedience. If a wife is not ready to do what her husband suggests under such circumstances she is not obedient.

JHE She was, in a sense, eavesdropping, listening behind the tent-door. We shall never get a matter correctly if we get it that way.

JT We will proceed now. Jehovah is minded to tell Abraham what He is going to do for his wife, and she was listening at the tent-door and she laughed within herself; there was a lack there, a want of transparency and obedience. In verse 14 God says, “At the time appointed I will return to thee, at this time of the year, and Sarah shall have a son” — great fact, Isaac is to be born! Then the next thing is verse 17, “^[p. 91] And Jehovah said, Shall I hide from Abraham what I am doing?” And there is a reason for it, “Since Abraham shall indeed become a great and mighty nation; and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him. For I know him that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of Jehovah, to do righteousness and justice, in order that Jehovah may bring upon Abraham what he hath spoken of him”. The matter is now all clear to us, that we have Abraham’s character for years to come and that God knows him and knows that he can be relied upon, so that He is not going to hide things from him; He is going to tell him things.

Ques May I refer back again to verse 13? Jehovah takes up the matter with Abraham, but Sarah laughed, He did not take up the matter with ^[p. 90] Sarah. Is there a principle in that, that the husband is responsible for the wife, in the matter of headship?

JT That is so, though I think the matter of laughing is quite in order in its proper setting; as a matter of fact the word ‘laugh’ comes out in time, it enters into the meaning of Isaac’s name. But this thought of Abraham as a man to be relied upon is a matter that we should all take account of: the question of reliability and transparency in this chapter.

RWS What can be said about Abraham conducting the visitors, in verse 16? “Abraham went with them to conduct them”. Is that a right thought in view of who they were?.

JT It was courtesy, I would say. We are told to be courteous.

RWS He was not staying at home; as they moved on, he moved on, and then it says, “to conduct them”. He was moving on towards Sodom.

ANW Is it not commendable, in that had he not done so the disclosures would not have been made? There is what was done as they stationed themselves before Abraham, but as moving on, he conducting them, this disclosure is brought to light. Should we not note that as we move with divine Persons we shall possibly have other disclosures?

JT Please tell us more of what you have in mind.

ANW You impressed upon us that previously the visitors had stationed themselves in relation to Abraham as he sat at the tent-door. But now, in verse 16, it says, “And the men rose up thence, and looked toward Sodom; and Abraham went with them to conduct them”. Had he stayed where he was and allowed them to go, it would appear that the disclosure of what God was about to do would not have been made to him.

JT And it would seem as if Jehovah intended to stay with Abraham and let the men go. It says,

“And Jehovah said; Shall I hide from Abraham what I am doing?” Now it also says that “the men rose up thence, and looked toward Sodom”, as if they were going that way, but evidently Jehovah intended to stay with Abraham. In verse 22 it says “the men turned thence, and went towards Sodom; and Abraham remained yet standing before Jehovah”. Undoubtedly Jehovah intended that, because it says, “Shall I hide from Abraham what I am doing?” Jehovah intended to say something to Abraham.

ANW Are you suggesting that Jehovah separated from the other two?

JT Quite so, so that the whole matter is clear now; the other two are angels, they are creatures, and they are going to Sodom to perform judgment. But Jehovah is standing with Abraham, and Abraham recognizes that and talks to Him; and God talks to Abraham.

CAM So that if we are willing and ready to go with divine Persons in their movements, God would let us into the secret of what He has in mind. “Shall I hide from Abraham what I am doing?” He said, and in order to bring Abraham into that He remained standing designedly.

JT Yes, but not the two men; they went on toward Sodom, clearly. The disclosure therefore is not in connection with the two men, but directly from Jehovah to Abraham.

Ques Is that the position of the assembly today, that we are with the Lord, and the angels are on the way to judgment? I mean the assembly is not associated in the execution of judgment; it is in the light of the gospel.

JT Jehovah is in the judgment, of course, it is His mind, but the angels execute it.

SCM We have instruction in the Revelation as to the judgment that is coming upon the whole ^[p. 92] habitable world; we are getting the benefit of this knowledge as we are waiting for the Lord.

JT Quite so, I would go with that fully. And it is very impressive too, a most solemn thing is coming, and we can see it here also; because Sodom was to be judged. Abraham sought to interfere to save Sodom, but there were not enough righteous people to save it. That is a solemn thing, that there were not enough righteous people to save it; and ere long there will not be enough righteous people in the world to save it.

RDG With regard to Abraham’s lack of transparency in the latter part of the chapter, would you say that he therefore gets into the false position of rebuking God when he says, “Far be it from thee!” as if he were suggesting that it was possible that God could do wrong?

JT Yes, just so. I would say that. But what are we to say about this other matter of the number of righteous persons not being sufficient to save the world from judgment? There is no hope of it, the numbers are utterly wanting, there were not fifty righteous, there were not ten righteous in Sodom.

RWS In that connection should we not feel the departure to be with Christ of a number of our brethren lately, some of whom were well known amongst us and serving generally? It says in Isaiah 57, “The righteous perisheth, and no man layeth it to heart; and merciful men are taken away, none considering that the righteous is taken away from before the evil. He entereth into peace: they rest in their beds, each one that hath walked in his uprightness”, Isaiah 57:1,2. The number of brethren that have gone to be with the Lord means that for each one taken there is one less righteous person left down here. Possibly we should be concerned about those who are to be baptized for ^[p. 93] the dead.

ANW Did the Lord have this lack of righteous ones in His mind when He said, “When the Son of man comes, shall he indeed find faith on the earth”? Luke 18:8.

JT Very good, I would say that.

SW Despite the work of God in the soul of Abraham, there was fluctuation in him in the presence of God. With ourselves, on the Lord’s day morning in the service of God we find that we are not able to be sustained very long in power in the presence of divine Persons.

JT Then the idea of fluctuations, of course, becomes serious. But I think we might go forward from this point, recognizing that Abraham has failed in certain points in the chapter but that at the same time the humanity that is there is of God; God has effected it, both in his wife and in himself. Therefore we can happily proceed with what is before us. The humanity that is seen in Abraham and in Sarah is, we might say, passable though not exactly perfect. At the same time there is something to be thankful for if we find these features in each other.

Ques Is it to Abraham’s credit that he says, in verse 27, “Behold now, I have ventured to speak unto the Lord; I, who am dust and ashes”?

JT It is a humble spirit; that is the kind of humanity that is there and we have to be thankful for it. Now in chapter 20 there is something to consider that I think will be helpful. It says, “And Abraham departed thence towards the south country, and dwelt between Kadesh and Shur, and sojourned at Gerar. And Abraham said of Sarah his wife, She is my sister”. Now that is the thing that I want to bring out; it runs through the whole of chapter 20 that Abraham denied his proper relation with his wife; in type he denied union. Union is a great point in christianity, that Christ is united to the assembly and the assembly is united to Christ. So Abraham ^[p. 94] denied this fact in saying that Sarah was his sister, for she was his wife. He denied union. This thought of union is a prime matter, a matter of first importance in christianity.

AR Is that what is in mind in Ephesians, “The two shall be one flesh”? Ephesians 5:31.

JT That is just what it is. The denominations around us do not go in for that at all, they do not understand it, and christians generally do not understand it. And I think Abraham is guilty of that here in calling his wife his sister.

WWM Do you think it would also suggest that if we take up an easier position we are likely to deny the church position? Going south would suggest an easier position. It says, “Abraham departed thence towards the south country, and dwelt between Kadesh and Shur”. If we take up a lower position, similar to that of denominations and do not maintain the right principles of the assembly, we are actually denying them. So Abraham denied the fact that Sarah was his wife.

JT That is what we are dealing with; it is not simply that he went to the south country but that he denied his wife; he called her his sister.

Ques Would it be going so far as to deny the espousal that Paul speaks of in 2 Corinthians?

JT Quite so; Abraham did not recognize the idea of union; it was in type denied by Abraham. What Paul spoke of in Corinthians as to espousing them to one Man was manifestly in view of union; that is the idea. He would insist on it, and that is what we should insist upon, not simply that we are brothers and sisters but that we are united to Christ; we are espoused, we are identified with the Lord’s spouse.

AR Do we express the idea of union ^[p. 95] at the Supper?

JT Quite so; the Lord is aiming at that at the celebration of His supper every Lord’s day, that we belong to Him, that we are united to Him in one body.

ANW You could certainly never have the bride if you stop only at kinship. The wife must be a sister, but if she stops short of the wife position it is most serious.

JT She was his wife here, she was not his sister properly. I mean to say, the wife was the idea. He wanted to save himself by saying that she was his sister, which was not the truth.

ANW How is it that he is so sound on the matter of his children and his household, and so weak on this vital point?

JT I think the point is that it covers the whole of christendom and that the truth is not held as to the assembly, generally. So many believers do not understand the truth of the assembly and union.

Ques Has not the truth of union to be arrived at before we can reach the great thought of “man”?

JT Well, if we refer to Genesis we see in the second chapter that Eve is the complement of Adam, that is to say she is the fulness of Adam: “they shall become one flesh” Genesis 2:24 is the idea there and that is what Abraham denied here.

Ques In the morning meeting reference is often made to the bride, but seldom is reference made to the wife. Should we make more reference on that occasion to the wife and the wifely relations?

JT I would think so. The second of Genesis is so decisive on this point in which we are so defective, as advocating and stating the truth that has place in relation to the Lord’s supper; that is to say that the Lord’s supper implies that the assembly is His body.

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