MAN (27)
MAN (27)
JTJr Paul is the outstanding gift to the church, and the consideration of manhood as seen in him would be very enlightening and instructive, especially as we look at the details of his conversion.
ABP His introduction to us in chapter 7 is: “The witnesses laid aside their clothes at the feet of a young man called Saul” Acts 7:58.
JT What have you in mind about that?
ABP Our subject is Man, and I thought it was significant that the title ‘man’ is given to him when introduced in the Scriptures.
JT Quite so; and then, in chapter 10:1, we have: “But a certain man in Caesarea, — by name Cornelius”; Acts 10: there is a link there. There are men who are going to heaven and we all should be ready for that; heaven is to be opened soon.
WWM When Ananias said, “I have heard from many concerning this man how much evil he has done to thy saints”, he had in mind the wrong kind of manhood.
CAM Do you think there is a change of man in this chapter? As we think of Saul of Tarsus and the change that he underwent you would think it right to say that there was a change of man; and I suppose we have all to change our man.
JT That is an expression that was given out some time back; that we have to change our man.
AR You made a remark about going to heaven; it says at the end of verse 3, “And suddenly there shone round about him a light out of heaven ... And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus, whom thou persecutest”. Are we to learn this kind of Man? He is the suffering Man, for though [p. 437] in heaven, He feels what the saints are suffering. It involves both heaven and earth; it involves Christ in heaven but suffering with the saints on earth.
JT I wonder what heaven will be composed of and what we may have in mind as to the idea of heaven, because there are to be men in heaven.
TNW The expression “such a man” 2 Corinthians 12:3 is used by Paul to describe the man that went up to the third heaven.
JT Quite so; very good, he was caught up to the third heaven.
AR Do you think there are men in heaven now?
JT It is the great idea of God and men that is in mind. What a variety of things there must be in heaven, and think of the kind of Man that God has in heaven now, and the kind of men that God is going to have in heaven!
FNW Does the testimony of Jesus develop men who are suited for heaven?
JT I would think so; but what about the millennium? There are to be men suited for the millennium.
FNW I suppose we are to be heavenly men in association with Christ in the millennium.
Ques Does the Lord Jesus as a Man in heaven give the assurance that men will be there?
JT I think so.
JTJr There is only one Man in heaven now. Christ is in heaven; as far as we know He is the only Man in heaven. He has gone into heaven itself. We cannot say where Enoch and Elijah are, for example, although it says, “Jehovah would take up Elijah into the heavens” 2 Kings 2:1, and of Enoch it says, “God had translated him”, Hebrews 11:5.
JT Quite so.
ANW Luke speaks of Moses and Elias on the mount as “two men”. Would you say they were in heaven, or [p. 438] not?
JT Well, the next thing is, where is heaven? It is a place God has in mind for beings, to have them in relation to Himself.
ANW Yes, finality is in relation to the tabernacle of God being with men. But you are now pressing the point as to heaven.
Ques Why is the idea of heaven plural? Scripture speaks of the heavens. The apostle Paul was caught up to the third heaven, and the Lord Himself has gone far above all heavens.
JT Heaven must, in some way, convey the idea of God and what He is like. And so as to man. The idea of the plural is that God takes account of the kind of being that He has; he is like Himself: “Let us make man in our image”, and then, “let them have dominion”, Genesis 1:26. They must be like God.
Ques Does the plural convey the sense of fulness?
JT The fulness of the Man: “the fulness of him who fills all in all”, Ephesians 1:23. Man is the greatest being that God has designed, and we have part in that.
ABP Do we have a suggestion of the heavens in the tabernacle system? First there was the court, then that “which is called Holy” and then that “which is called Holy of holies”, Hebrews 9:2,3.
J.T. Why do you say that?
ABP Because it is spoken of in Hebrews 9:23 as “figurative representations of the things in the heavens”, Hebrews 9:23 Just so; but what more do you have to say?
ABP In Job 2:1, reference is made to the sons of God appearing before Jehovah. I wondered if that might be a sphere which would be less holy than the third heaven, for instance, spoken of by Paul, and that the nearer we get to divine Persons, the more holy would be the sphere.
CAM I think you have said that the tabernacle system is a picture of the universe.
JT [p. 439] Well, that is what it is; but the point is, where is man in relation to it, and how much like God is he? The word is, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion”, Genesis 1:26. That is the position. Let them have dominion. There is the idea of rule; a Man is to rule the universe.
CAM I suppose it would be right to say that the holiest of all would be the presence of God Himself in the vast universe, and that a Man has gone in.
ABP In 2 Corinthians 12, Paul speaks of having been caught up to the third heaven, saying, “I know a man in Christ”, 2 Corinthians 12:2. That would be a new order of man?
JT Very good; a man in Christ; and he had in mind to describe him so that we might have an idea of him and the kind of man God has in His mind.
JTJr So it says, “Whether in the body or out of the body I know not, God knows”, 2 Corinthians 12:2. God has to do with our bodies.
GH There is a difference, is there not, between the thought of the inward man and the new man? Romans 7:22 speaks of the inward man delighting in the law of God, and Colossians 3:10 speaks of having put on the new man.
JT The inward man refers to God’s work in us but the new man is a broader thought and is in contrast to all that has gone before. The old man is to be put off and the new man is to be put on.
Rem We are to put on the “new man, which according to God is created in truthful righteousness and holiness”, Ephesians 4:24.
JT That is good.
JTJr These thoughts are very practical; it is what was going on, in some measure, in Saul in our chapter. The inward man was being developed. A good start has been made. Delighting in the law [p. 440] of God involves subjection; that is what we get here in Saul; he says, “Who art thou, Lord?”. A later account tells us that he said, “What shall I do, Lord?” Acts 22:10. That was his conversion.
JE According to 2 Corinthians 4:16, Paul could speak of the outward man being consumed and the inward man being renewed day by day.
JT Very good; it is a continual thing, and God has a great interest in it. Day by day is an everyday matter.
EAL In 2 Corinthians 5:17, it says, “If any one be in Christ, there is a new creation; the old things have passed away; behold all things have become new”, 2 Corinthians 5:17. That is an individual coming into the new position through being in Christ. Paul spoke of himself as being “in Christ”, saying, “I know a man in Christ”, 2 Corinthians 12:2.
JT Paul had that ministry. Peter did not have it; it was Paul’s work. What a scope he had! God had taken him up for that purpose.
JHE The Lord said to Ananias, “This man is an elect vessel to me”.
JT Quite so.
VCL Do you think “a man in Christ” brings us back to God’s first thoughts, creating man in His own image and likeness?
JT Quite so; it was what was in His mind. His first thought was man, not woman; but “let them have dominion” Genesis 1:26 brings in the man and the woman. The assembly is to have part in rule. The principle has been seen in England for years. The queen has a place as well as the king.
AR When Paul said, “I know a man in Christ”, the word ‘know’ was conscious knowledge. It would be a present matter all the time.
JTJr The beginnings of all that can be found in this chapter. Paul’s conversion was the beginning of all these great thoughts of man which are [p. 441] developed in his ministry, and particularly as to Christ and the assembly.
ABP Do we rightly link this with what he says, in Galatians 1:15: “But when God, who set me apart even from my mother’s womb, and called me by his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son in me”, Galatians 1:15. This is his call, is it not?
JTJr Quite so.
ANW Is he not signalised in the very fact that the Lord appeared to him last? I thought that appearing signalised the vessel.
JT Quite so.
CAM So that in his conversion there was the germ of what he was to set out in his ministry. There was such a wonderful change and such wonderful light that there seems to be in it the germ of all that he brought out in his ministry.
JTJr And the beginning of it is in that word, “Who art thou, Lord?”; he had never said that before.
CAM What you referred to earlier about his subjection is such an immense matter at the commencement of soul history, is it not? There is another will now.
JTJr His own will was broken.
ABP Would his being baptised for the washing away of his sins show that there had been an inward work? Baptism would be a public expression or evidence that an internal work had taken place?
JTJr You are referring to his later account?
ABP Yes, Acts 22:16.
AP Should we not be able to analyse the work of God in ourselves? Paul says, “So then I myself with the mind serve God’s law”, Romans 7:25.
JT Quite so; the idea of ‘I myself’, and then later Paul says, “I know a man in Christ”, 2 Corinthians 12:2.
AR Do you think that verse 6 is an extension of the thought of manhood? In verse 5, he says,
“Who art thou, Lord?”. But in verse 6 he is told to rise up and enter into the city where he would be told what to do. He would get more light as he went into the city.
JTJr Yes, the Lord did not do the whole matter, He sent him into the city where he would find the brethren.
SCM Is there anything to be learned from the word ‘suddenly?’ Divine Persons have a right to do things suddenly.
JT Quite so.
SCM In Luke 2:13 there is a similar expression: “And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host”, Luke 2:13.
Ques Do you think that the Lord’s words to Paul at his conversion would give him a great appreciation of the assembly, when the truth came into his soul, and give colour to his life and ministry? When we get converted we get light as to the Lord, but we need light as to the assembly and the value of the brethren.
VCL It is very impressive that heaven should so value this man. The Lord Jesus appeared to him; a brother was made ready to lay hands on him that he should receive the Holy Spirit, and the brethren cared for him so that he should not be killed. It emphasises the value of a man to God, does it not?
JT I would say so; he was the subject of divine care.
GH In this chapter there are the expressions ‘suddenly’ and ‘straightway’, and then two men saying to Peter that he must not delay. All this would suggest that there is urgency in the Lord’s work.
JT That is good; these were urgent matters. We should take account of things that ought to be done at once.
AR Saul’s preaching seems to be the first time we have the Lord Jesus referred to as the Son of God in the book of the Acts. “He preached Jesus that he is the Son of God”. That title involves that He is the centre of another world altogether. Saul must have been a very rapid learner. And then in verse 22, it says, “... proving that this is the Christ”. He must have received great light about the Lord quickly.
FNW Underlying his powerful testimony for Christ there seem to be subjective features that are proper to man according to God. He was subject, saying, “Lord”, he was praying, and he was filled with the Holy Spirit.
Ques Is there a suggestion that Paul’s ministry flowed out of his experiences? He prays for the Ephesian saints, that they may be strengthened by the Father’s Spirit in the inner man. I wondered if he has experience here, for he received the Spirit, as baptised, and was strengthened, and then, in verse 22, it says, “But Saul increased the more in power”.
JHE The Lord said to Nicodemus: “Except anyone be born anew he cannot see the kingdom of God”, John 3:3 and then later, “Except anyone be born of water and of Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God”, John 3:5. Do we see that worked out here? It says, “And straightway there fell from his eyes as it were scales, and he saw, and rising up was baptised; and, having received food, got strength. And he was with the disciples”. He has seen and now he enters.
JT Quite so.
EAL Nathanael, John the baptist, Martha, and the centurion called the Lord the Son of God. Does Paul’s ministry follow on what they confessed as to the Lord, that He is the Son of [p. 444] God?
JT We might wonder what we are coming into, not in the millennium, but as going into heaven. He has gone into heaven; angels and principalities have been made subject to Him.
AR The Lord Jesus went into heaven, according to Acts 1:9. But the testimony is rendered: “This Jesus who has been taken up from you into heaven, shall thus come in the manner in which ye have beheld him going into heaven”, Acts 1:9. I have wondered about the manner in which He went in, and in which He is coming back.
JT I have also wondered about that: those who believe are all going to heaven. “Such as the heavenly one, such also the heavenly ones”, 1 Corinthians 15:48. The Lord Jesus has gone into heaven and those who are like Him are going in.
AR His going into heaven must have been unique, and He will come back in the same manner.
VCL The Lord went into heaven alone; when He next goes back into heaven He will have the redeemed with Him. Men just like Himself are going into the very presence of God with Him.
Rem In John 17 the Lord said to the Father: “Father, as to those whom thou hast given me, I desire that where I am they also may be with me”, John 17:24. The Lord wants us to be with Him where He is; in the meantime He is leaving us here.
JT What a wonderful prospect there is before us in all these matters. We are to be the companions of Christ.
JTJr It is in the assembly itself that we should see the kind of people who are going to be in heaven.
FNW Acts 10 brings out that the assembly is the place where we see the persons who are going into heaven. It was after Peter had the vision of the sheet coming down from heaven, and being taken up to heaven, that the Spirit said to him, in that setting: “What God has cleansed, do not thou make common”, Acts 10:15 alluding to the persons.
AMacd Verse 19 says, “And he was with the disciples who were in Damascus certain days”, and similarly verse 28, “And he was with them coming in and going out at Jerusalem”. There is no thought of independence with Paul.
JTJr He was with the disciples; that is the great point. And we are with the brethren tonight; it is the same idea.
CAM Paul comes to city conditions. What an immensity there is in this conversion!
JTJr Yes, and following that there is the idea of how the disciples look after him. There were those in the city who took care of Paul, while others sought to kill him.
JHE While soul salvation is through the precious blood of Christ, we need the protection of the assembly to be saved from the world and the things of the world, do we not?
JT Very good.
SCM The apostle was brought into the good of the fellowship; it says: “But Barnabas took him and brought him to the apostles, and related to them how he had seen the Lord in the way”. He is brought into the right way now. Previously, he was seeking to destroy those who were in the way, but now he himself is brought into it.
Rem Peter being told not to call what God has cleansed common or unclean, would help us not to regard men as common; God would set man up in dignity.
JT Just so.
SW The first person to come to Saul is the brother; then he is with the disciples, and later he is introduced to the apostles. But the value of the brother would never be lost sight of by him throughout his ministry. At the end of his epistle to the [p. 446] Romans he refers to the brother Quartus, for example. He may go right on to revealing the mystery, but he never loses sight of the brother.
JT Very good.
ABP Is care for one another to characterise us as disciples? The thought of discipleship seems to be very prominent in this chapter. Does the title ‘brother’ link on with discipleship?
JTJr It was the brethren that brought him down to Caesarea and sent him to Tarsus. The brethren sent him. That fits in with what you were saying as to the link with discipleship.
FHL The circumstances attending upon Saul’s conversion were qualifying him to take his place amongst the disciples. He was to be told what he must do. And then he was led by the hand. In Romans 12 we are called upon to present our bodies a living sacrifice. He seems to be qualifying for that here.
ANW Is the uniqueness of the man and the extensive influence he had before his conversion seen in the last verse we read? It says, “The assemblies then throughout the whole of Judaea and Galilee and Samaria had peace, being edified and walking in the fear of the Lord, and were increased through the comfort of the Holy Spirit” (verse 31). Does it not show what a vessel is secured, we may say, for the assembly?
JTJr So that following on the thought of discipleship, we have this thought as to the assembly, and Paul was to be used so distinctly in regard to it.
SCM It says, in verse 17, that he was to be filled with the Holy Spirit. This seems to characterise his ministry. In chapter 19 he immediately enquires of the men at Ephesus if they had received the Holy Spirit.
JTJr Quite so.
AR [p. 447] The reference in verse 31 is to the assemblies; it is in the plural; the assemblies throughout the whole of Judaea and Galilee and Samaria. Apparently this is the first time in the Acts the word is used in the plural.
JTJr It would seem that God was acting in view of the assembly. This great servant is preserved in spite of the attempts that were made against him. He was preserved and the assemblies were comforted and increased.
AR It is the “comfort of the Holy Spirit”.
WWM The sovereignty of God is wonderfully seen here. It says, in verse 7, “But the men who were travelling with him stood speechless, hearing the voice but beholding no one”. Evidently they were not affected, showing how the sovereignty of God may operate in a gospel preaching where only one person out of many may be converted.
JTJr There was one person in mind here — Saul of Tarsus.
Rem That sovereignty is set out in Galatians 1:15 where it says, “But when God, who set me apart even from my mother’s womb, and called me by his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son in me”, Galatians 1:15 Saul is spoken of as an elect vessel.
CFE Were these downward movements intended to make Saul greater morally, in view of his ministry later? He was let down through the wall in a basket, and then brought down to Caesarea.
ANW It is interesting that he later links that experience on with his reference to the catching up of the man in Christ to the third heaven, in 2 Corinthians 12:2.
EAL The brethren “brought him down to Caesarea and sent him away to Tarsus”. Did you have something in mind bearing on the movements of the Lord’[p. 448] s servant?
JTJr Well, I thought it shows how this great servant was preserved despite the efforts of the enemy to destroy him. The brethren looked after him. It says that the Jews’ “plot became known to Saul”. He discovered it himself; it speaks of Saul’s own intuition about things, but it was the brethren who cared for him.
He refers to it later, as has been mentioned, before he recounts the fact of a man in Christ being caught up to the third heaven and caught up into paradise. This whole matter was in his mind; he said that the ethnarch of Aretas the king sought to take him; he made a point of that.
JE In verse 9 it says, “And he was three days without seeing, and neither ate nor drank”. Does that time of fasting make way for spiritual history being made?
JTJr That shows the early work in his soul, and we all should have some experience of that kind. There should be some experience in our early history when our wills were broken, and the evidence of that should remain with us.
TNW I wonder if there was something like that supposed in the expression: “He that is joined to the Lord is one Spirit”? 1 Corinthians 6:17. It is a kind of mysterious expression.
JTJr The lordship of Christ is in mind. It is a question of His lordship controlling us, through understanding His commandments, and we come into that wonderful position of being “one Spirit”.
Rem There is evidence that our wills are broken if we move acceptably with the brethren. Saul is seen as being perfectly amenable to the brethren, and ready to be cared for by them.
ABP Is not Barnabas worthy of favourable comment in that he discerned Saul’s reality? The brethren, generally, were afraid [p. 449] of him.
JTJr Barnabas took him and brought him to the apostles.
ABP Yes; the brethren “were afraid of him, not believing that he was a disciple. But Barnabas took him and brought him to the apostles”. This seems to be in keeping with what is said about Barnabas later, that he was a good man.
JTJr He recognized in this great gift God’s sovereign rights. There should be this recognition amongst us also.
Ques And should we not keep up-to-date with what God is doing in the souls of one another? The brethren evidently had not kept up-to-date with God’s work in Saul.
JHE The secret history with God, which Paul refers to in Galatians where he speaks of Arabia, is also necessary. He said that he did not confer with flesh and blood, but went to Arabia (Galatians 1:17).
JTJr I am sure that secret history is needed. If we have never had it, there is still time yet to get it. We learn things in the presence of God.
WWM It seems that Saul was received at Damascus but at Jerusalem they were afraid of him. Possibly there was more of a religious atmosphere in Jerusalem than at Damascus, which prevented spiritual discernment.