MAN (29)
MAN (29)
JT I suppose we could not do better than to pursue the thought of manhood as seen in Paul.
JTJr Do we see him in relation to the assembly in this chapter?
JT Just so; it says, “Now there were in Antioch, in the assembly which was there ...” The assembly was there and there were prophets and teachers.
JTJr Are these seen in their local setting?
JT Yes; it is a very good opening for our consideration. It goes on to say, “And as they were ministering to the Lord and fasting ...” That is a very good beginning — they were ministering to the Lord; the Lord’s authority is clearly recognised; He was with them. And the reference to fasting is a fine word.
ANW In that local setting the apostle is mentioned last; and then the first and the last mentioned emerge together as “the Holy Spirit said, Separate me now Barnabas and Saul”. In verse 13 he further emerges into a special place, “Paul and his company”.
JT Paul is specially brought before us.
ANW It is interesting, also, that it says, in verse 9, “Saul, who also is Paul”. I thought the Spirit would bring him forward in that way.
JT And the statement, “Paul and his company” is to be specially noted.
Ques Gifts were set in the assembly for the edifying of the body of Christ till all should arrive at the full-grown man. Is that inaugurated here in Paul and those that were with him at Antioch? And does it lead on to the full-grown man as seen in Paul?
JT The full-grown man is the thing to be occupied with: “Until we all arrive at the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, at the full-grown man, at the measure of the stature of the fulness of the Christ”, Ephesians 4:13.
[p. 460] The full-grown man can be relied upon; a man of truth and righteousness; “created in truthful righteousness and holiness”, Ephesians 4:24.
DMacd When it says, “Saul, who also is Paul, filled with the Holy Spirit ...”, does that bring in the idea of the full-grown man?
JT Just so; and “who also is Paul” must suggest that some distinction is apprehended as to this remarkable man; he is, in principle, a full-grown man.
LW Is fasting a feature of manhood which makes way for the Spirit? It says of these men, that “as they were ministering to the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said ...”. I was wondering if this feature makes room for the Spirit to speak in the assembly.
JT Just so; the Holy Spirit came down from heaven. I just wonder how much we know about the Holy Spirit as come down from heaven; He regulates everything in relation to God and His service, and fasting makes room for the Spirit.
WWM Do you mean that on account of their fasting the Holy Spirit had greater opportunity, and that if we knew more about fasting the Spirit would have greater place with us all?
JT It means sacrifice; you sacrifice when you fast; you make way for something in yourself in view of having more power.
WWM It has been said that fasting is refraining from what would be legitimate.
Ques You have said that literal fasting from food is proper in an individual sense; would it also be carried out collectively according to this scripture? It would appear that they were doing it collectively here.
J.T. Did you ever [p. 461] fast?
Rem No, not as to food.
JT We cannot reach manhood unless we fast. When you fast you make way for God to work; you learn to give up what is of yourself; and in giving up what is of yourself you become a man. That is how it works and that is the way God works. So that God is going to fill the heavens with men.
Rem I would like to know if that principle can be carried out in our local settings in a collective way in view of difficulties being met.
JT I think God honours such; we experienced it some years ago in this city. The brethren here joined together in fasting and God helped us. And if the saints are ready to do it, I believe God will help us. There would be more manhood with us if we knew more about fasting.
LW You mean collectively?
JT Certainly.
LW It was brought before us recently in Ezra 8:21: “And I proclaimed a fast there, at the river Ahava, that we might humble ourselves before our God, to seek of him a right way for us, and for our little ones, and for all our substance”. That was collective fasting.
SCM Do we see something reached in Hannah? It says of her that she “went her way, and did eat, and her countenance was no more as before”, 1 Samuel 1:18. Previously she did not eat; she saw the need of a man child and she fasted on that account. But now, because her desire is fulfilled, it says, “She ... did eat”.
ANW Anna, the very elderly widow in Luke, is singled out as fasting; though aged she was “serving night and day with fastings and prayers”, Luke 2:37.
AP Is it, then, intended that fasting should be literal, and that it should be carried out by us; that we should abstain from eating when [p. 462] conditions call for it?
JT Yes; surely, fasting is a real matter.
FNW Are we to understand that the five brothers in our chapter, who were ministering to the Lord and fasting, would suggest that some take it on and give a lead in the matter?
JT Well, the point is, let us try it, and I believe something will come out of it.
AP It may be that we should take it on in connection with the union matter.
EAL The trade union matter affects those who labour with their hands, generally, but we may need to be concerned, also, as to directorships, partnerships, and professional associations.
JTJr Fasting would develop great power in Paul. He had great power as being full of the Holy Spirit. “But Saul, who also is Paul, filled with the Holy Spirit ...” He dealt with this difficult matter in great power.
JHH Peter knew something of the value of fasting in Acts 10, where it says that he was hungry and desired to eat. He became in an ecstasy on the roof-top.
ANW Would the defection with John Mark develop from too much consideration for himself? It is simply stated in this chapter that he left them, but Paul discloses later that he abandoned the work. He probably was considering too much for himself.
JT So it says: “And they had John also as their attendant”. That is John Mark, and he “separated from them and returned to Jerusalem”, according to verse 13. But then we have reference to the proconsul in verse 7: “Sergius Paulus, an intelligent man”. That is to be noted; it is a fine word. “He, having called Barnabas and Saul to him, desired to hear the word of God”. And then, later, when Elymas the magician opposed them, seeking to turn the proconsul from the faith, it says, “Saul, who also is Paul, filled with the Holy Spirit, fixing his eyes upon him, said ...”
[p. 463] It was after this that John separated from them and returned to Jerusalem.
Ques Does Paul’s preaching serve as an example for us all who preach?
JT I think it does; he was a man thoroughly versed in the scriptures and able to speak the word of God. The thought of the word of God was in his heart.
Rem In Antioch of Pisidia (verse 14) the people were going along with the law and prophets which, it says, they read on the sabbath, but Paul brought them up to date as to what had transpired. He spoke of the death and resurrection of Christ.
FNW Would the power which Paul has in this chapter, both in meeting the attack of Satan and in speaking of the word of God, flow out of this exercise of fasting and prayer?
JT Say more.
FNW I would like to know if fasting should be taken on with a specific exercise in view. When the Spirit called Barnabas and Saul it says of the brethren, “Then, having fasted and prayed, and having laid their hands on them, they let them go”.
JT Yes; we can look for the Spirit of God to come in and act.
SCM The fasting is referred to first, before the prayer, as though it took precedence.
JT I would say that; it is to emphasise the fasting, I would say.
JTJr Ministering to the Lord comes first in verse 2, and is linked on with fasting; they would go together. The great thought of lordship is brought in.
JT Quite so; ministering to the Lord is a peculiar service which appeals to the believer.
JTJr Yes; it means that you have the Lord before you in [p. 464] a definite way.
ANW Is there any suggestion that we should come together for the purpose of fasting? Is that implied in verse 3?
JT It is a matter that we should take on when required and the wives and the children ought to be led on in these matters too. And also in reading the Scriptures householdly each morning, husbands and wives and children should be in it.
ANW I think we are challenged about this matter of fasting, and if there is any lead to be given about it, such as Ezra gave in chapter 8:21 of his book, I believe we would want to follow it.
Rem In Esther 4:16, where it was a question of life and death, Esther said to Mordecai: “Go, gather together all the Jews that are found in Shushan, and fast for me”, Esther 4:16.
Ques Do you think that the principle of self-sacrifice which underlies fasting should be characteristic of us? Should it mark us in relation to getting to the meetings, overcoming weather conditions, rising early in the morning in order to read the ministry and the like? We would thus get the truth on the principle of sacrifice.
JT Yes, it is good to give a lead in that.
EAL In Revelation 2:17 it says, “To him that overcomes, to him will I give of the hidden manna”, Revelation 2:17. Would that be the food that would be available to us if we fasted?
JT That is a beautiful word, and it goes on to speak of the white stone and a new name.
ANW Fasting, in principle, would be starving the flesh; that is what is needed. It has been said that if we shut the flesh out we bring God in. Fasting empowers us to bring God in in prayer.
AR It says in the prophet Jonah that “the men of Nineveh believed God, and proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth”, Jonah 3:5. But the first thing is that they [p. 465] believed God.
SCM Persons may fast without having any definite exercise, but if fasting results from believing God and being faced with something to be worked out, it is a real matter.
JT I believe that the brethren will come to it.
Rem In Matthew 6 it says, “When ye fast, be not as the hypocrites ... anoint thy head and wash thy face, so that thou mayest not appear fasting unto men, but to thy Father who is in secret” Matthew 6:16 - 18.
JTJr Attention has been called to this “intelligent man” in verse 7. The magician tried to turn him aside. Intelligent men who desire to hear the word of God are scarce today.
AR And, according to verse 12, he believed, being amazed at the teaching of the Lord.
JTJr The evil man is set aside, the man “full of all deceit and all craft”.
LW Would fasting be involved in seeking God out as in Hebrews 11:6? “He that draws near to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them who seek him out”, Hebrews 11:6.
JT It would develop a better class of men.
JTJr Do you mean that we would be better men if we knew more of this?
JT Quite so.
JHH When the disciples were exercised about lack of power to cast the demon out of a boy, they asked the Lord privately, “Wherefore could not we cast him out? And he said to them, This kind can go out by nothing but by prayer and fasting”, Mark 9:28,29. That power comes by prayer and fasting.
JT Just so.
DMacD The examples of fasting which have come before us tonight have been in relation to very specific and definite exercises. Would it not seem that the time to fast is in relation to [p. 466] specific and definite exercises which come up and where power is needed?
JT Very good.
JTJr It seems to be the state of the assembly at Antioch. They were going on that way; it was a normal feature of the assembly; they were ministering to the Lord and fasting.
ABP Is it not true that christianity is founded on the principle of self-denial and that it should be a well-known thing to us? Our dispensation was inaugurated by Jesus giving Himself and selling all that He had; the Father spared not His Son but delivered Him up for us all; and the principle on which the Spirit is here is that He is sent and given. And does that not involve that we are to be unselfish?
JT Yes; unselfishness marks the dispensation.
ABP Fasting would fit into the principle of unselfishness or self-denial.
JTJr So that fasting and self-denial and self-sacrifice are reached through the teaching of Romans 7 which leads to self-judgment, the emptying of oneself.
AP Would John Mark’s failure to go all the way be because he was not on the line of fasting?
JT I believe the Lord will listen to a fasting people.
AR If we do not understand what it is to be delivered from ourselves as reaching the “O wretched man that I am!”, Romans 7:24 we cannot be truly self-denying. It is there we feel the need of deliverance from self.
JT Quite so; you have the basis for true manhood there.
WWM There is a striking passage in Isaiah 58:6,7: “Is not this the fast which I have chosen: to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the thongs of the yoke, and to send forth free the crushed, and that ye break every yoke? Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring to thy house the needy wanderers; when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh?”.
AR I suppose the idea of manhood comes before us uniquely in verse 22: “I have found David, the son of Jesse, a man after my heart, who shall do all my will”. The Lord comes in through that line, does He not?
JT Quite so; a man after my heart. And then, “Of this man’s seed according to promise has God brought to Israel a Saviour, Jesus”. That is beautiful!
Rem And then in verse 38 it says, “Be it known ... that through this man remission of sins is preached to you”.
JT Yes; through “this man”.
ABP Does true manhood always direct our thoughts to “the man Christ Jesus”?
JT Yes; the Man Christ Jesus; that is the Man.
JTJr And so the Lord, in John 17, refers to “the men whom thou gavest me”, John 17:6. It would be in His mind that there would be men, able to be alongside of Him, who would take on His thoughts and carry them through.