MAN (2)
MAN (2)
JT There are certain definite links between this chapter and the last paragraph of chapter 4. Verse 25 of that chapter leads up to Seth, whose name is said to mean ‘appointed’. There would be undoubtedly a divine thought in that, that God had taken up Seth to bring out the thought of His counsels leading up to the family of God in this chapter. These men each lived a long time. It is suggested that the thought of the love of God cannot be excluded from the chapter. God has begun again here, and we have, “This is the book of Adam’s generations”. It is suggested that this section involves the family of God and the counsels of God, beginning with Seth; so that we are placed on a high level of truth in which I believe the Lord would sustain us. It is not a mere matter of analysis or history, but that God has entered into the matter Himself; not only in a creational sense but in the sense of love; that He is God. Presently we shall take up Abraham and others to see how His thoughts work out; but in this section we have great and fresh thoughts about God and the family of God, about the human race. I use the word ‘family’ only in the sense in which it is found in this chapter; and whilst Adam cannot quite be said to belong to the children of God as never having been a child, yet he belongs to this chapter. In chapter 1 it is just Adam; but in this chapter there is the additional thought of what Adam became, and his family. So that we have here the generations of Adam: “The book of the generations of Adam”. The word ‘generation’ has to be regarded in its own meaning: it is the head of an order of man or of a family. There are many of them spoken of throughout Scripture; about ten of them throughout [p. 22] this book.
FHL Were you linking this on with the words at the end of chapter 4, where it says, “Then people began to call on the name of Jehovah”? Genesis 4:26.
JT That is right, they began to call upon the Name. The word ‘Jehovah’ comes in in chapter 2 — Jehovah Elohim — so that a link of family relation is already introduced.
AR Do you get the family idea in verse 3, “And Adam lived a hundred and thirty years, and begot a son in his likeness, after his image, and called his name Seth”?
JT Just so; it is linked up with verse 26 of the previous chapter where “people began to call on the name of Jehovah”, Genesis 4:26.
They began to call on it, showing the thought of respect for the relation between God and His people which comes out more fully in Exodus where the name of God is fully disclosed.
Ques Is the use of the name Jehovah here anticipative of what was to come out?
JT That is right, it comes out in Exodus. God discloses His name to Moses: “I AM THAT I AM”.
ANW And Enoch’s name, meaning ‘disciplined’, would confirm it on our side, would it not? The thought of discipline would seem to bring in the family relationship, or would be the effect of family relationship.
JT Just so, very good.
RWS Is there a moral touch in verse 26 where it says, “and he called his name Enosh”? Genesis 4:26. I think that is the third name that has been used so far to designate man. We had Adam, and Ish, and now Enosh. This seems to be the third name for man, meaning that he is weak and mortal.
JT Yes; that is the meaning as given in the note. As calling upon the name of Jehovah men accepted that death had come in and that Enosh was a representative of it; his father evidently recognised that when he gave him his name, Enosh,
[p. 23] poor mortal man. Of course we are all mortal and we may as well accept it, only with us we know that the Lord is coming for us. The word ‘mortal’ means that we are liable to death, but at the same time faith enables us to reckon that the Lord is coming for us, that we should look for that and not simply for death. Some are looking for death, but it is clear that the New Testament would encourage our hearts to look for the coming of the Lord to take us.
JTJr We have the word ‘mortal’ in Romans 8 in connection with our mortal bodies. It is in line with what you are saying: “if the Spirit of him that has raised up Jesus from among the dead dwell in you, he that has raised up Christ from among the dead shall quicken your mortal bodies also on account of his Spirit which dwells in you”, Romans 8:11.
JT That came out recently in meetings in England and it seemed to lend touch or colour to what we were having; the thought of our being mortal, and that the Spirit of God changes that for us is touching. He changes our mortal bodies and quickens them so that we may not die. The Lord says, “Whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die”, John 11:26.
FNW The expression “children of God” is mentioned in Romans 8 in that same paragraph. Would that be a family relationship connected with our mortal condition? The full thought of sonship, “sons of God”, Romans 8:14 is not connected with our present mortal condition, is it?
JT We are sons, however, as well as children: “But because ye are sons, God has sent out the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, Abba, Father”, Galatians 4:6.
FNW Is not the fulness of it connected with a body of glory like Christ’s?
JT [p. 24] Quite so.
ANW Is not the skill of the Spirit seen in Psalm 8? He says in verse 4, “What is man ... ?”, Psalm 8:4 referring to this same word, ‘Enosh’ — man in his feeble mortal condition; but when He says, “the son of man”, He uses the word ‘Adam’, not the one suggesting feebleness. Is that not the skill of the Spirit as having Christ in view in changing over to the word ‘Adam?’ Showing how the mind of God is interwoven from the outset, the mind of God in whatever sense. It is a new generation in the end of Genesis 4 and they began to call on the name of Jehovah.
DMcD Is the scripture you referred to in Romans 8 morally true now? Or does it refer to the actual translation when it speaks of quickening our mortal bodies?
JT It is not moral now because it is a question of our mortal bodies being quickened. It has not a present application.
ANW I think the verses we read would confirm it; it says in chapter 8:11, “But if the Spirit of him that has raised up Jesus from among the dead dwell in you, he that has raised up Christ from among the dead shall quicken your mortal bodies also on account of his Spirit which dwells in you”, Romans 8:11. It seems to stand related to the raising up of Christ.
SJM Should we not, therefore, value our bodies at the present time in relation to the testimony?
JT Quite so, they are the Lord’s. They will presently be translated, but they are the Lord’s now, even in the mortal condition. We should accustom ourselves to look for the change alluded to — the quickening of our mortal bodies. We should become accustomed to that, and not simply occupy ourselves with the possibility that we are going to die; it is better to be occupied with the truth as Scripture puts it. Of course, some were told that they would die, as, for instance, Peter; and [p. 25] the apostle Paul contemplates the possibility of it; he said it would be far better than his then condition. But generally speaking the thought is that the Lord is coming for us, and the Spirit is ready to quicken us at any time; He is ready to do it.
AR Do you think that Enoch anticipated translation?
JT “He was not”, it says; he was translated, but we cannot say any more than that. “He was not”, and “before his translation he has the testimony that he had pleased God”, Hebrews 11:5 which is a very great thing that will come in presently when we are talking about his name.
RWS Chapter 4 does not say that the progeny of Cain died. There are certain names too in that chapter which are similar to those in chapter 5. Would all that affect Seth so that when his son is born he calls him Enosh, to repudiate the principles of Cain’s world?
JT Just so. So that I think we are entitled to regard this chapter as over against chapter 4, and to refer to the death of the saints that these are “the dead in Christ”, 1 Thessalonians 4:16 in principle at least. From the light we have in the New Testament we are entitled to think of their death as the death of the saints. Is that clear?
RWS Yes, it is; I am glad you mentioned that because there are certain names that are similar in the two chapters; yet those in the one allude to the saints and in the other to men in Cain’s world.
JT So that in 1 Thessalonians 4, the chapter that speaks of the Lord’s coming for us, the dead in Christ are said to rise first. Then we which are alive shall be quickened. So that I think we should be entitled to confirm what we said at the beginning, that this chapter is the family of God and that they are going to rise first.
ABP [p. 26] Would there be any suggestion of Abel’s death being typical of the death of Christ?
JT Yes, he is a type; and Seth is a type too, I think; he is appointed, as the Lord is appointed, instead of Adam.
VCL You have spoken elsewhere of God having His great thought of what is good and that it brings in Adam’s generations; and I wondered if that is the reason that faith is linked on with Enoch, according to Hebrews 11?
JT Just so.
VCL Then in a sense are these seven a complete picture of what God had for Himself in spite of sin? Are we allowed to see in these seven men, Adam to Enoch, that God reserves the better part for Himself in that era, even though sin came in?
JT Exactly. We had at Chicago what we have come to in Hebrews 12; and amongst the things mentioned are the dead in Christ, those that are to be raised. The idea is that the dead in Christ rise first.
Ques You said in regard to “the spirits of just men made perfect” Hebrews 12:23 that they are these men in this chapter. How are we to understand that these are the just men referred to?
JT Well, it is the truth; the teaching of the chapter refers to the family of God. They are the ones that will rise first, they come into the resurrection first; then we which are alive and remain shall be changed and caught up to be ever with the Lord. We are to comfort one another with these words.
EAL In Moses and Elias on the mount of transfiguration, do we see there the spirits of just men made perfect?
JT Well, we must keep in mind the word which says that “they should not be made perfect without us”, Hebrews [p. 27] 11:40.
RWS Does Seth head up the family of God in this section?
JT I think so, it is the idea that attaches to him, I think. “And Adam knew his wife again, and she bore a son, and called his name Seth” (Genesis 4:25). She called his name Seth, and then it goes on to say, “For God has appointed me another seed instead of Abel”. That is to say, he is taking the place of Abel.
FSC Does 1 Chronicles 1 bring out what we are saying? “Adam, Seth, Enosh”, 1 Chronicles 1:1 and so on.
JT Just so, it alludes to this; it shows the character of the first book of Chronicles. Just the names are given.
FHL In this second verse it says that God created, and He blessed, and He called. Would this blessing bring them into the family?
JT I think so; very good. This word ‘blessing’ is really entering into the whole chapter, and the thought of the family of God enters into it too.
RWS Will you enlarge on how Seth is a type of Christ?
JT He is appointed instead of Abel; it is just a dim allusion but we can see the appointed One; God has appointed a day “in which he is going to judge the habitable earth in righteousness by the man whom he has appointed”, Acts 17:31. That is stated distinctly.
R.W.S. God’s Man!
ANW There is a hiatus against his name in verse 25 of chapter 4. There is evidently something striking to the writer which that would indicate.
JT The word ‘appointed’ as given in the footnote referring to Seth’s name, has a great place here, and links with what has been said, that God “has set a day in which he is going to judge the habitable earth in righteousness by the man whom he has appointed, giving the proof of it to all in having raised him from among the dead”, [p. 28] Acts 17:31.
So that resurrection is in mind.
JTJr In Acts 17 Paul goes back to the creation; he begins with, “The God who has made the world and all things which are in it”; Acts 17:24 that is, he does not refer exactly to Israel, he goes back to the creation. And then in that verse you read, “by the man whom he has appointed”, we get the very word ‘Seth, appointed’, brought in.
JT I think that will appeal to all the brethren, that we have come to something very definite in the name Seth, taking the place of Abel.
AR You mean there is the suggestion of resurrection in Seth?
JT That is what is seen in what we have quoted in the New Testament, as well as here.
Rem The history of the family of Cain in the fourth chapter ends up with a murder, and it does not say that one came in in the place of the murdered man. But here we have Seth coming in in the place of Abel, which you say is typical of Christ coming in.
JT Quite so, I think it is very wonderful, and I use the word ‘wonderful’ deliberately, how all this comes into this chapter which is the family chapter, and how the lives of the saints are given, including Enoch, though he “was not found, because God had translated him”; Hebrews 11:5 that is, he is a type of the risen glorified saints.
ABP Is there a suggestion in the fact that their years are mentioned in days, that those days were all taken account of by God? While their lives were long in years, yet they were divided into days.
JT Every day was valuable, “And thy rest as thy days”, Deuteronomy 33:25. That is a great encouragement to [p. 29] us.
DP Do these names set out distinctive personalities, showing that some feature of God was formed in each of these men?
JT I think so; it is a family chapter, you know. “See what love the Father has given to us, that we should be called the children of God”, 1 John 3:1. It says further, “What we shall be has not yet been manifested”, 1 John 3:2 but we are something, we are something definite, the children of God. John would bring this chapter into that.
TNW With reference to Seth it says that he was begotten in the image and likeness of Adam. Those two expressions are used in the first chapter in connection with God and the creation of Adam. Is there a link?
JT I suppose there is; Adam is brought into it definitely in chapter 5. It is a matter of Adam’s generations.
AAT Speaking of days, it says in the last chapter of Job that he died, “old and full of days”, Job 42:17. Would that correspond with this chapter?
JT Very good. God made much of Job when he was restored. God made a great deal of him. He calls him, “My servant Job”. He said to the three friends, “My servant Job shall pray for you”, Job 42:8.
VCL In connection with the family idea, is it not remarkable that apparently Adam was alive most of the time that Enoch was walking with God? It would show the remarkable overlapping of what was pleasing to God in these men.
JT Just so; God looks down on His family, He knows every one of us, our traits and what characterises us, every one of us. And I think it is very beautiful that we are able to call each other by name, we are friends of each other and can call each other by name. Very likely we could name each other even now in this room, although there [p. 30] are a good few of us. We ought to accustom ourselves to the idea of the names of the friends.
SJM The Lord in John 10 says that He calls His own sheep by name.
JT Just so; and John is the one who mentions the idea of greeting the friends by name.
SW You were saying that we should live in the light of the rapture, which is very encouraging to us all. But must we not have the thought of Enosh before us before we can get to Enoch? I mean the thought of the weak mortal man.
JT Enoch was a sufferer, a sufferer for the truth, I would say; he was devoted, he was a man that was disciplined; he brings in the idea of being disciplined.
SW Yes, I just thought of man’s days being numbered, as in Psalm 103: man’s days “are as grass”, Psalm 103:15. We should have it before us that our days are short so that our minds will be occupied with the thought of the rapture.
JT And then that we are amongst the disciplined ones whom the Father loves, for whom God loves He chastens. Every father chastens his sons, and God chastens us because He loves us. We have that before us too.
SJM In reference to the appointment of Seth, is not the enemy bent on breaking the link, but will not God see to it at all times that it is maintained? In the Acts we get two appointed from whom one is to take the place of Judas. Is there something in that, that things are to be maintained unbroken, nothing is to be broken? So we get Seth where Abel left off; he is appointed for Abel.
JT Just so, in Acts the number twelve is secured; and the appointment secures it. The book of Acts would strengthen that position. The divine number must be maintained, and that divine number is twelve. It is maintained in Acts and it is maintained [p. 31] in Revelation 21; the names of the apostles are written there.
ANW Seth is needed to complete the seven, is he not? He is one in the vital link of the seven.
Ques Does Seth rise to the thought in Ephesians where it says we have been “marked out beforehand ... according to the counsel of his own will”? Ephesians 1:11. You mentioned the word ‘counsel’ in your opening remarks. Is the thought here that God was not taken unawares by the death of Abel?
JT Just so; things must fit into the divine thoughts, and God sees to it that they do. They fit in the testimony down here too as shown in the number twelve, and they fit in heaven.
FHL The generations go on, the sons and daughters come to light in every case.
JT Sons and daughters convey the family thought.
AR In Genesis 1:28 God said, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth”, Genesis 1:28. In that injunction would He have in mind this family, that they were the only ones worthy to be multiplied? Would that refer to the family of God?
JT Exactly, only that chapter 5 carries the thought of the family more than the first chapter.
Ques Certain things are mentioned about man in chapter 5:2 that have been mentioned in chapter one. Is that an indication that although sin has come in, God is retaining His prime thought?
JT Just so, His original thought.
ANW Is that seen too in the fact that while it is six times repeated, “and he died”, death taking six of them, yet the seventh God took? It was God’s right, God took him.
CHH Would the fact that these seven men would be living at the same time, overlapping each other, mean that God could look at His family as a [p. 32] perfect representation of Himself, that is, in the combination of the seven?
JT Yes, and John’s epistle would work this out, too, in the family of God. The character of God is worked out in His family in John’s three epistles, especially the first one.
ABP Have you in mind the thought of the fathers and the young men and the children when you say that?
JT Yes; but I was speaking particularly of the scripture, “See what love the Father has given to us, that we should be called the children of God”, 1 John 3:1. The children of God are there; they must represent God.
ABP Then in the overlapping that has been referred to there would be these different variations, would there not — the fathers, the young men, and the children in the various stages of growth?
JT Just so.
SJM I was noticing in the gospels where it speaks of affection — because affection seems to underlie the whole position here — that the Lord says, “The Father himself has affection for you”, John 16:27. Do you think that fits in?
JT Quite so; “... because ye have had affection for me”. The Lord was in their hearts, and now they are in His Father’s heart.
JGB Have you any thought as to why the mention of love does not come in until chapter 22? It says there, “Take now thy son, thine only son, whom thou lovest, Isaac”, Genesis 22:2. I was wondering why the family thought goes forward to that point before the matter of love is mentioned as you remarked on it in John’s epistle.
JT You have to go forward a good distance in the Old Testament for that, but it is well to notice the word ‘love’, and that it is in connection with Isaac that we get it first used.
[p. 33] SJM But it underlies the chapter here, does it not? For it says, “Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him”. It would be an underlying feature here?
JT It would, because this being the family chapter we must bring God into it, and His nature too, we might say; and that is what our brother has in mind, only that we have to go down to Isaac to get it fully. It is in the family of Abraham. It is in Abraham that we get the thought of the family intensified because he is the father of us all. It is the first time that we get a name like that. It means that he is the father of us all. Love belongs to that section.
AR We have in John’s gospel the expression, “born ... of God”. He is the Originator of a family in that sense.
CHH Would the word ‘likeness’ in verse 3 involve nature? There would be affection there: Adam “begot a son in his likeness, after his image”. Would “likeness” cover the idea of affection and love, whereas “image” would be the representation of God?
JT Very good; the idea of Adam’s likeness being carried on through Seth.
JTJr In reference to Cain it is said that his countenance fell, which would allude, I suppose, to the condition of the old man in the world. The violence is all there.
FHL Jude’s reference to Enoch is in connection with a prophecy as to the ungodly. Would you say a word about that prophecy? It is a very remarkable matter.
JT It is in the book of Jude that Enoch is mentioned as a prophet. Will you read it, please; it is very important, especially as to the holy myriads.
FHL “And Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied also as to these, saying, Behold, the Lord has come amidst his holy myriads, to execute judgment against all; and to convict all the ungodly of them of all their works of ungodliness, which they have wrought ungodlily, and of all the hard things which ungodly sinners have spoken against him”, Jude 14,[p. 34] 15.
JT You can see that Jude has a good judgment as to the world, a very good judgment, and it is a good thing for young people to pay attention to it. And he calls the saints “his holy myriads”. He says that the Lord is coming “amidst his holy myriads”.
AAT It says that Enoch walked with God, and he was not, for God took him; and then in Colossians 3:3 it says, “For ye have died, and your life is hid with the Christ in God”, Colossians 3:3. There is a connection between the two scriptures, is there not?
JT Yes, there is a connection; Enoch “was not, for God took him”, and the word for us is, “For ye have died, and your life is hid with the Christ in God”, Colossians 3:3. That is clearly connected with Enoch.
RWS In the prophetic vision of Enoch it says, “Behold, the Lord has come”, Jude 14. Is that still future?
JT It is future; but it is remarkable that the idea of the prophetic ministry is connected with this family chapter. Enoch represents it. He is telling about the future, but there is a moral lesson in it too because he speaks of holy myriads, that the Lord is coming with the holy myriads. That is a point that should come into our meetings for prophetic ministry.
VCL Is the family thought borne out particularly by the mention each time of sons and daughters, as though, while it is a physical fact, nevertheless sons and daughters were pleasing to God then and are still pleasing to Him?
JT And so you might well connect that with 2 Corinthians 6 where separation is alluded to. It is said that if we are separate, “Ye shall be to me for sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty”, 2 Corinthians 6:18.
SJM Zacchaeus is called, by the Lord Himself, a son of Abraham. That would fit into this matter, would it not? Then later on He speaks of a daughter of Abraham, as though He carried the thing in His mind all the time.
JT You allude to the woman whom the Lord straightened. He said that she was a daughter of Abraham.