MAN (23)
MAN (23)
JT In dealing with Scripture we should understand that it is inspired of God and that it deals with subjects that are not all alike, some of them being more sacred and exalted than others, but all inspired of God. So the assembly rightly viewed is the nearest to divine Persons, and the passages dealing with it are more exalted than many other sections of Scripture. There is a certain distinction made as to the holy pages; the Spirit of God makes His own distinctions. Every scripture is inspired by the Spirit of God, but then as to certain qualifications and exaltations and qualities, we have to make distinctions. So the assembly has the most exalted place in all the Scriptures, next to divine Persons. We have to be careful as to the way we handle any given scripture so that the distinctions that the Holy Spirit makes may be recognized. Each one of us has to challenge himself as to this.
Rem What you have said is very important; it should keep our minds flexible that we might follow the variety and distinctions of all that God has done, or will do.
JT Very good; clearly some are on a lower level, so to speak, though still on a divine level, because they are inspired. When we come to John’s gospel, and particularly in this seventeenth chapter, we are dealing with one of the most precious scriptures that can be spoken of. It is the nearest approach to divine Persons.
ANW The apostle speaks of milk as over against solid food. Would a chapter like this suggest solid food?
JT I would say so.
ABP Would it be right to say that we are in the holiest at this [p. 382] point?
JT Peculiarly so, I would say. Entering the holiest is a term used in the epistle to the Hebrews and it is peculiarly applicable in dealing with John’s gospel; the Lord here is speaking to His Father in the most intimate terms. “These things Jesus spoke, and lifted up his eyes to heaven” — notice that — “and said, Father, the hour is come”. He is on the most intimate terms! And then He says, “Glorify thy Son, that thy Son may glorify thee; as thou hast given him authority over all flesh, that as to all that thou hast given to him, he should give them life eternal. And this is the eternal life, that they should know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent”. We should keep in mind the preciousness of the portion, and the Lord’s lifting up His eyes to heaven. He had been looking elsewhere in His responsibility down here, but now it is a question of His relation with His Father and speaking with the Father. Presently He will speak about us to the Father, too.
VCL In 1 Corinthians 12, the apostle says that there are distinctions of gifts, but the same Spirit; and distinctions of services, and the same Lord; and distinctions of operations, but the same God; as though there can be comparisons in everything created, but divine Persons are supreme.
JT Quite so; that is what I understand.
Ques Is the matter of eternal life that is introduced here of peculiar interest in view of our being near to divine Persons and enjoying their affections, and serving them suitably?
JT I would say that greatly exalts the subject of eternal life. As you will be aware, the subject of eternal life became very prominent amongst us some fifty years ago, and has continued so ever since. Perhaps we do not follow it up so much as we should do, because it is a leading subject in Scripture.
[p. 383] Life is so essential to us; not only life, but in this case life eternal; and the Lord says, “This is the eternal life, that they should know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent”. It is the most exalted statement as to it in Scripture. In John’s first epistle it is said of the Lord Jesus that He is the true God and eternal life.
EAL If we do not know God now, and if we do not know Jesus Christ as the One through whom we come into the good of eternal life in this scene, we shall not know Him in eternity as such, shall we?
JT Well, I am not sure that I am clear on that, because we shall have eternal life certainly, eternally. But I would say to clarify the position that eternal life is usually spoken of as on the earth, connected with the earth; it is a millennial thought to a very large extent; but that does not exclude the idea that it is eternal, because the very word ‘eternal’ is used.
Ques As the expression is used here the emphasis is on the word ‘eternal’, the footnote explains that; and is that because we are still down here, where that character of life has such a distinct advantage?
JT Quite so; and then it is eternal in the sense that it is not temporal; we have it in the assembly and realise it in the power of the Spirit. Eternal life belongs to the land, as we say, that is, in the assembly.
JHE The Lord Jesus says elsewhere in John, “I am come that they might have life, and might have it abundantly”, John 10:10. We are to be in the good of that now, are we not?
JT We are to have it now, certainly.
JTJr We have a brief definition of eternal life here, yet it is very full.
JT You mean, “This is the eternal life, that they should know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent”.
[p. 384] AR Do you think that we fully understand the idea of the Lord’s being sent, the One who was obedient here to the will of God?
JT He was the sent One, nevertheless He is a divine Person; He was subject and obedient to His Father in a most holy, exalted way.
AR So that all who are of the assembly should be marked by subjection?
JT Just so, it is a great principle of christianity that we should be subject, every one of us; and in the assembly we should understand the idea of subjection in all the services that enter into it. Of course, with the Lord there was order and seemliness in everything; so that He became a Babe, He was carried in arms, so to speak; then He became a Boy, He moved about as a Boy; and finally we see Him as a Man of thirty years of age. All these distinctions have to be taken account of.
ANW When Jesus Christ is stated to be eternal life, the Spirit is careful to balance that by saying also that He is the true God; it would not do to leave that out. “He is the true God, and eternal life”, 1 John 5:20.
AS Would you say that the Father is the true God here?
JT Quite so.
JTJr That is the first thought, is it not? The next thought is as to Jesus Christ. But the first great statement is “the only true God”.
JT It is beautifully stated: “And this is the eternal life, that they should know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent”.
AP Would you say a word as to why the expression “the only true God” is used here?
JT Where divine Persons are in question, if the thought of God is before us, they may be mentioned interchangeably; the Father may be mentioned, or God as such may be mentioned; and [p. 385] Jesus Christ may be mentioned, as we have in 1 John 5:20: “He is the true God and eternal life”. What do you have in mind?
AP In view of the scripture in 1 John where the Lord Jesus is spoken of as the true God, is there something special to be noted in the fact that the Father is spoken of as the only true God? Is Deity particularly connected with the Father in that way?
JT I would be slow to use the word ‘particularly’ because divine Persons are equal; from a personal point of view Each is equal to the Other. And yet, in the economy, reference is made to particular distinctions; the Father is seen as the first, the Son as the second and the Spirit as the third. These are distinctions that we have to observe. At the same time the fact remains that divine Persons are equal, viewed abstractly, as to what They were in pre-incarnate conditions.
AP I wondered if it might link with the expression that “to us there is one God, the Father”, 1 Corinthians 8:6. While Deity clearly applies to each of the Persons, is what belongs to the Deity specially presented to us in the Father in certain settings?
JT Very good: “To us there is one God, the Father ... and one Lord, Jesus Christ”; so that the Father is specially mentioned in that sense. But then there is the thought that abstractly the divine Persons are all equal; in pre-incarnate conditions They are all equal, and we would so regard Them. We cannot say more as to pre-incarnate conditions than that, only we know that the conditions were there.
JTJr The Lord does not say here that He is the true God, He says that of the Father; then later, in verse 5, He says, “Glorify me ... with the glory which I had along with thee”; that is evidently an allusion to His own Person.
JT “Before the world was”, just so, the pre-incarnate condition.
[p. 386] Ques Does it help to notice that it is the Son that is speaking here? In verse 1 He speaks of Himself as “thy Son”, and a little later on the personal references are used, “me” and “thou” and “along with thyself”. So that as the Son He would give prominence to the Father?
ABP Have we a very extended outlook in this first section in that “all flesh” is referred to, but from all flesh there are certain ones who are singled out?
JT Again we have to come to what is meant by the way Scripture speaks of things, what is meant usually in human language; “all flesh” might include literally the lower animals, but it means man, of course. It is man, and then finally it is converted people that are in mind.
ABP It is a remarkable range of view that opens up in the holiest.
JT We have the Spirit of God here by us and as having come down from heaven. He is very concerned about us and He adds His help to our weaknesses, whatever they may be; if it is a matter of intelligence or understanding, we can count on the Spirit of God to help us.
FHL Throughout the seventeenth chapter “the world” is referred to some eighteen or twenty times, which must be this world in contrast to the world occupied by man according to God.
JT Very good; but then if we enlarge on the thought we are told that “God so loved the world, that he gave his only-begotten Son”, John 3:16. We must bear that in mind, too.
AR Is verse 5 exclusively what belongs to the Godhead, in contrast to verse 24? “Along with thyself”, would be Deity by Itself, would it not?
JT That refers to the Persons in the Deity, just so; “The glory which I had along with thee before the world was”; that is Deity, pre-incarnate Deity.
[p. 387] Ques There is no suggestion, I understand, that we shall see that glory, is there?
JT Oh, I do not think so; it says that no one has seen God nor can see Him.
AS Would the pronouns help? It is “I” and “thou” when the Lord is speaking to His Father in verse 5 about Himself; but it is “I” and “they” in verse 24.
JT “The glory which I had along with thee” is peculiar to divine Persons, it was in pre-incarnation, not visible to the world; that is what I understand.
RWS Love was there between the divine Persons, was it not?
JT There is that which is peculiar to divine Persons, and what is between divine Persons is beyond us; we cannot assume to see what is between divine Persons, because it is infinite. We might say that it is simple enough as to love between ourselves, but what is between divine Persons is beyond us; we are dealing with what is beyond us. It is in incarnation that we get what is near to us and can be defined.
JTJr In the first chapter of the gospel it is said that “the Word was with God”; John 1:1 that would be a link with “along with thyself”, would it not?
JT Just so, association is the idea. Divine relations are beyond us until incarnation; then they become definable because it is intended that they should be definable in the fact that Christ has become Man. He was a Babe, a Boy and then a Man, speaking reverently.
WWM Would “the world” in the expression, “before the world was”, refer to the creation?
JT Quite so; ‘kosmos’ is the original word used, so that we have to include the physical world spoken of in the first chapter of Genesis. That is the only world that we can speak of with any [p. 388] definiteness.
WWM So in order to get a right thought as to what was in the Lord’s mind we have to think of an uncreated sphere?
JT That is right, an uncreated sphere; who can define that? We cannot, it belongs to God.
Ques I should like more help on the glory in verse 5.
JT The word is, “and now glorify me, thou Father, along with thyself, with the glory which I had along with thee before the world was”. What is your question?
Ques I want to know the distinction between the glory in verse 5, and the glory which we behold in verse 24; and then in verse 22, “the glory which thou hast given me I have given them”.
JT The glory which has been given was given through Christ down here; but in verse 5 it is connected with association between divine Persons, which we cannot define.
AR The glory in verse 24 was given to Christ in Manhood?
JT Yes. In verse 22, the glory received involves the Spirit given to us. The Lord received the Spirit Himself, It came upon Him, and He gives that to us, He imparts to us what He had.
ANW So the glory in verse 24 we are allowed to behold, but verse 22 speaks of a glory we are allowed to share?
JT That is right. The Lord is speaking primarily as to the apostles, “that they may be one”. We come into the oneness that they knew peculiarly; it says, “That they may be perfected into one and that the world may know”. The simple idea is that all this is visible in the saints. Verse 22 refers to a transaction between the divine Persons, but the Lord transfers that to the apostles.
[p. 389] Rem It is a very wonderful thought for our hearts, “That they may be all one, as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee”..
JT All that would imply the truth of the Holy Spirit given to us.
Ques Would it involve sonship also, for us?
JT Yes, the glory must relate to sonship; the Lord received that from the Father and He has transferred it to us. The glory of sonship is the greatest glory, in that sense, that we have. God is bringing many sons to glory, and that is a great matter.
JHE Would 2 Corinthians 3 help? It says, “But we all, looking on the glory of the Lord, with unveiled face, are transformed according to the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Lord the Spirit”, 2 Corinthians 3:18.
JT Very good; there it is a question of the Spirit’s power; “Lord ... Spirit”; it is remarkable that the Spirit is said to be Lord there, the glory of the Lord is in the Spirit. The transfer to us is in the power of the Spirit. It gives glory to the fellowship; so that we should not throw it away as some that walked with us are doing in this very city. They are throwing away the fellowship, the thing that is glorious; they are not in the truth of the Spirit at all, not in the good of the truth of redemption, really.
WWM Romans 8 says, “Whom he has justified, these also he has glorified”, Romans 8:30.
JT Yes; the glory is coming in, in the power of the Spirit; it is what christianity really is, and it lies in the Spirit through redemption.
ABP Is it right to say that glory relates in some way to the outshining of the activity of love?
JT Very good; that is just what I would understand; love is glory. It is seen in the Father and in [p. 390] the Son, too; it was seen in Christ here in incarnation.
VCL Is there a suggestion that the most wonderful dispensation of all has come in? Jehovah said to Moses: “Man shall not see me, and live” Exodus 33:20; but it is given to us to behold Christ, so that in that sense this dispensation is crowned by beholding God in Christ, is it not?
JT So that the things alluded to would all refer to the glory that shone out in the incarnation; it is a wonderful time, a time of glory in which we are living; we want to magnify it; we have come into it; it belongs to us.
ABP In the first chapter of this book it says, “we have contemplated his glory, a glory as of an only-begotten with a father” John 1:14. Would that glory be some expression of the relationship between the Son and the Father which the disciples may have observed when they were with Him as He prayed to the Father?
JT That is right; it is sonship, which is a great matter. But it is a matter that belongs to time; we cannot say He was Son in past eternity. He was born Son: “the holy thing also which shall be born shall be called Son of God”, Luke 1:35. It exists now; it is a glory connected with the incarnation. Everything hinges on that. The assembly’s place and relationship hinges on the glory of the incarnation. One of the Persons of the Godhead has come into Manhood. God can do everything, but He has elected to do things by way of the incarnation.
EAL In Matthew 17:5 it says, “Behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them”, Matthew 17:5. The footnote says that the cloud covered, without darkening them; it was bright — the excellent glory.
JT The cloud over the tabernacle was a similar thing. It was God’s gracious faithfulness to His people. The fulness of that glory will be seen in [p. 391] the millennium. It is a question of seeing how things have worked out in time.
JHE We might say that, in measure, verse 22 is fulfilled today, for the saints are desirous of being together more and more and the glory is shining.
AR The Lord said, “I have manifested thy name to the men whom thou gavest me out of the world”. We are to be marked by spiritual manhood if we are to understand these things.
JT It is “the men whom thou gavest me”. That is before us in this meeting today; our subject is Manhood.
GH The great thought in mind is that God should receive glory from all that has transpired. The leper returned glorifying God. And then there is to be glory to God in the assembly. That is the great final thought.
JT Quite so, God is to be glorified in everything.
JTJr The reference to the “men” would allude to something the Lord had developed: “the men whom thou gavest me out of the world”: that would be the apostles?
JT Quite so. “I have manifested thy name to the men whom thou gavest me out of the world. They were thine, and thou gavest them me, and they have kept thy word. Now they have known that all things that thou hast, given me are of thee; for the words which thou hast given me I have given them, and they have received them, and have known truly that I came out from thee, and have believed that thou sentest me” (verses 6 - 8).
AP Was Stephen honoured in that he saw the glory of God and Jesus standing at the right hand of God?
JT Showing that redemption had been accomplished. He had “gone into heaven, angels and authorities and powers being subjected to him”, 1 Peter 3:22.
AP [p. 392] That was His compensation for suffering?
JT Just so.
VCL John was the one who lay in the bosom of Jesus. He would be one of the “men”. It should encourage us to be among the men to whom these things are revealed.
JT John 1:4 says, “In him was life, and the life was the light of men”, John 1:4. It was not the light of angels; it was the light of men.
FHL John says in his epistle, “our fellowship is indeed with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ”, 1 John 1:3. Those are the men.
SCM The apostle Paul spoke of committing things to faithful men.
JT So that we are dealing with the idea of man and what God has in him, and what we may be ourselves as being men. Now that the Spirit has been given the glory of redemption is a very real matter. It enters into this room tonight; the glory of redemption enters into our conversation with one another: It is all very real.
Ques Are we brought into John 17 in verse 20? “And I do not demand for these only, but also for those who believe on me through their word; that they may be all one, as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us”.
JT Very good. Therefore you would say it is not simply a question of the apostles; we ourselves are brought into these matters in the power of the word; that is to say, through those whom God has used — the apostles.
Rem So that while the apostles had a peculiar and special place, we are not at a disadvantage as having believed through their word.
JT It was not just anyone who spread the gospel; it was the apostles.
[p. 393] Rem And it could only be said of John that he lay in the bosom of Jesus. We cannot apply that to ourselves.
JT No; nor the scripture that was referred to a moment ago: “We have contemplated his glory”, John 1:14. We are not all in that; the Spirit of God calls attention to the dignity of the apostles; it is apostolic.
Rem They are addressed by the two men in white garments, in Acts 1, as “Men of Galilee”, Acts 1:11.
JT The Spirit of God has men in mind throughout this dispensation. The apostles were specially given of the Father to Christ; we do not come into that exactly. “Our fellowship”, John says, that is, the apostles’ fellowship, “is indeed with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ”, 1 John 1:3.
JTJr Would not all that is in this great realm of things, be set out in the apostles themselves? They set out the truth of righteousness and love. These things were seen in the apostles and would affect men generally.
JT Looking on to a later period, the Lord says, “For where two or three are gathered together unto my name, there am I in the midst of them”, Matthew 18:20. He dignifies the position even if there are only two or three; God honours it. We are not to assume to be evangelists, and build ourselves up as has been done when men classified themselves thus. The Lord was not pleased with it and it dropped out of view. God wants us to be humble because it is a day of small things.
ABP What is in mind when the Lord says as to the men, “They were thine, and thou gavest them me”? How were they the Father’s?
JT It is counsel.
ABP That has a special bearing on the apostles and not upon us?
JT [p. 394] That is right. The Lord was speaking here on earth. It is a historical matter, not of ourselves, but of the apostles.
ABP Does it link on with the Lord’s statement that the Father has given all things to be in His hand?
JT Just so; not only the apostles, but all things.
RWS Verse 22 says, “And the glory which thou hast given me I have given them, that they may be one, as we are one”. Does that apply exclusively to the apostles, or are we brought into the oneness?
JT It is only a matter of extension. The Lord was speaking of the apostles when He said that, and they came into it; in general, unity marked them. We are brought into the oneness in verse 21, but generally the apostles were in mind.
RWS I believe you have said as to the fellowship of the apostles and our having fellowship with them, that there is not too great a difference between what the apostles had and what we have.
JT But there is something. They had full christianity and apostleship and they had companied with the Lord.
JHE Verse 20 says, “And I do not demand for these only, but also for those who believe on me through their word”.
JT That extends the matter to us.
FNW Does the enjoyment of our place in sonship make way for unity?
JT It does. We are to love one another and respect one another and the Spirit of God greatly enhances our position.
SW Although the apostles are not on the scene now, this position is carried through in the saints.
JT In those that have believed through the word of the apostles.
SW The Lord in His address to the Father first says, “Father”, and then, “Holy Father”, and then,
“Righteous Father”. Can we use those terms intelligently?
JT We certainly can, for the Spirit of God is indwelling us; we are constituted priests unto God. That is a great dignity.
Rem It is remarkable what is said about love in the last verse: “That the love with which thou hast loved me may be in them and I in them”.
J.T. That is wonderful!