MAN (14)
MAN (14)
JT It is thought that this chapter should be looked at now and the second chapter this evening. We might note too that this being Election Day, man in the political sense will be before the people; so that it should be opportune for us to consider the idea of man as he is according to God, and man according to God is Christ! “The man Christ Jesus” is the word: “One mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus”, 1 Timothy 2:5. This is a long chapter but it is one whole subject, a question of kingship, man in the place of rule; and that man, according to God, is Christ. Many men have ruled, there have been great leaders in the world, the Caesars and others; but we must come to it that the only real Man according to God is Christ; and then of course those who are His. And so we are enjoined to be men, “Quit yourselves like men; be strong”, 1 Corinthians 16:13 so we do well to follow the matter up. Another thing to be added is that the word ‘man’ covers woman as well as man: “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion”; Genesis 1:26 the ‘them’ includes the sisters as well as the brothers, So that the idea of dominion should be native to us, we should all learn to be men in the sense of being according to Christ, godly men as in Christ who is the “one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus”, 1 Timothy 2:5.
ABP Had David seen some of the features in Solomon that he had learned should be in the one who rules amongst men? He says, in his last words, “The God of Israel said, The Rock of Israel spoke to me, the ruler among men shall be just, ruling in the fear of God”, 2 Samuel 23:3.
JT And he was asserting what he was himself as constituted to rule; and of course in reality that [p. 247] Man is Christ. It is remarkable how often David is mentioned in the New Testament, in the Acts and in the book of Revelation too. So clearly the thought should be with us on this particular day, this Election Day, as to our Man. Who is our choice? It is not that we would say a word against the government, but we want to think of our Man, and who is He? It is “the man Christ Jesus”, 1 Timothy 2:5. We do not want to say anything that would discredit the government or the members of it because we are thankful for them; “The authorities ... are set up by God”, Romans 13:1 it says; they are ordained of God and we should recognise that.
ANW Does the Spirit help us to see the pronounced opposite in Adonijah who exalted himself? He “exalted himself, saying, I will be king”. Our glorious Man humbled Himself and was exalted by God!
JT And so it is that David said to Solomon in chapter 2, “Be a man”, 2 Kings 2:2. David said that to him.
FHL Should we look at the type as completed in David and Solomon together?
JT I suppose that is really what is in mind; the idea should be followed up in both men, first in David and then in Solomon. And of course when the time comes, please God, we shall find that the New Testament brings out how kingship shines in Christ; because Christ is foreshadowed in these types, first in the book of Genesis where the idea of man begins: “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion” Genesis 1:26; and as we have said before, the woman is included in the word ‘man’,
FJF Is that why in the ordinary affairs the queen has a great place with the king? Is the thought there that woman is necessary to fill out the thought of [p. 248] kingship?
JT I do not know that there has ever been a queen held in greater honour according to men than Queen Victoria, and she was truly a queen, ruling the country. Her husband had not the distinction of being king but he was her husband. Queen Victoria, I think, represents the idea of queenship as we might get it among men; her reign was, I believe, ordered of God and the country prospered under her. I am speaking now of what God has raised up; and I might add that I believe President Roosevelt, whom God greatly honoured in this country, was used too in the same sense; he helped forward the things of God. We are not here to say much as to the rulers, but only to point out what God is pleased to bring out and effect for His people, that His people might be in peace and that the truth might continue to have free course. And so with David, who is before us, his name is mentioned remarkably often in the New Testament. Revelation speaks of the root of David and it is the Lord Jesus who is mentioned in that connection; the Lord Jesus is spoken of thus.
CAM Speaking of the feminine side, would it be right to look at Abishag as referring to the way the saints have been strengthened to apprehend the assembly, so that it has made room for a right apprehension of manhood according to Christ?
JT And of course the truth of the assembly in a certain sense has to be regarded as feminine, the word ‘assembly’ must be regarded as feminine when we consider it as Christ’s body.
RWS Just how do you view Abishag?
JT Oh, I do not know that there is much to say beyond what is said of her at the outset of the chapter; she is a suitable person to nourish David the king in his old age. She is regarded as a suitable person to do that, her character is clearly intimated, [p. 249] in that sense.
RWS Our brother mentioned her name in connection with the assembly, and I too wondered if there was some veiled thought of the assembly here in her personally.
JT Well, I suppose that might be said, but you would have to put it into it I would think. She is just as described, nothing more than that so far as I can see. It is a question of David and Solomon, of the house of David, the man that ruled as we have already said “in the fear of God”.
ANW Am I right in thinking that there is some involvement of the assembly in Revelation 12 where it says, “She brought forth a male son, who shall shepherd all the nations with an iron rod; and her child was caught up to God and to his throne”? Revelation 12:5. Does that involve the assembly with Christ in the being caught up?
FJF I think Mr. Darby regarded that scripture in that way. “And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to bring forth, in order that when she brought forth he might devour her child. And she brought forth a male son, who shall shepherd all the nations with an iron rod; and her child was caught up to God and to his throne”, Revelation 12:4,5.
ANW What has helped me about it, is that the child is “caught up”. I do not think that there is any suggestion in the Scriptures exactly of Jesus personally having been caught up, but that word does apply to the assembly. I thought that suggests that there might be something more involved — it might include the woman — the assembly. While it is an emphatic “male son”, yet the expression as to catching up is applied to the feminine side actually in the assembly, and never to Christ.
JT You would have to press the thing a little to see that I am afraid, because the word ‘male’ emphasises the idea of the masculine and we have to [p. 250] make way for all that in the book of Revelation. The assembly must make room for it, but the female side comes in in chapter 21. You get the twelve in chapter 21.
EAL There seems to be double emphasis on the masculine, it is a “male son”.
JT Just so; we must make room for the masculine side so as to get the authority and the order that is so needed in the book of Revelation. But in chapter 21 we have the idea of twelve enlarged upon, which brings out the administrative side. It says, “The holy city, Jerusalem ... having twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels”, Revelation 21:12. And then later, “The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb”, Revelation 21:14. That is not the assembly in relation to Paul, it is the apostolic assembly; the work of the twelve is in mind in that chapter; it is the assembly in relation to the twelve. That should be held in our minds to follow up the truth; not that we want to go too much into the New Testament at this time, but just to link on the truth.
SW Would you differentiate between the truth of the assembly as developed by Paul and the apostolic assembly?
JT The Pauline truth as to the assembly was reserved for the filling out or the completing of the word of God. It came in after the initial ministry of the twelve. The assembly in relation to the twelve was a primary thought; “He sat down with the twelve”, Matthew 26:14 it says. Judas of course failed them but the Lord kept in mind that He had the twelve. Paul and Barnabas were apostles, too. So that the idea of apostleship is held in the mind but the twelve apostles of the Lamb are referred to in Revelation.
EEH Does the number twelve emphasise that idea?
[p. 251] JT That is what I thought exactly; the number twelve is the idea, and in Revelation 21 particularly.
JTJr He appeared to the twelve according to 1 Corinthians 15.
JT Yes, to the twelve, and then to above five hundred brethren; but then Paul says He appeared to him also as to an abortion.
AR Do you get the idea of authority emphasized in Nathan the prophet? He instructs Bathsheba to go to David.
JT Well, I think we get the idea of personality in the prophet; Nathan is a peculiar personality, the meaning of his name is ‘gift’, I believe.
RWS There is a transitional period in this chapter. Is there some parallel with our own times, as to whether we are prepared to be definite in committal to the right kind of manhood? It seems a difficult time in this chapter, a transitional time with Adonijah seeking the throne and others seeking their own. Is it not a challenge as to our committal to this kind of man we are considering and whether we will definitely come over on the side of the kingship of Christ?
JT I think we have to consider our subject from that point of view, as to what man is in the place of rule. We have the two leaders of the tribe in that sense, David and Solomon, the two great kings in the same family in the place of rule. We have to see how that is to be worked out in our assembly relations, I would say.
VCL So that there is emphasis added to the importance of manhood in the reserves which God has when His man is attacked.
JT I think that is a great matter, negatively, that during the past one hundred years the idea of kingship has greatly lost its power in the world; even in the British system kingship has lost its power. So that we come down to what we may call [p. 252] radicalism. Radicalism has, to a great degree, displaced kingship. Kingship in Great Britain has been stripped of much of its power, which now is vested in the prime minister; the king has little power so far as that goes, except that it is the policy of the British system to retain the idea. But God is retaining the idea, and He is retaining it amongst the brethren; and we want to maintain kingship, to quit ourselves like men and be strong.
JTJr The radical idea should have no place amongst us; it is current politically but we are to judge it.
FJF Is not our King supreme, as out of death and crowned with glory and honour?
JT What is the word as to honouring the king as supreme? “Be in subjection ... whether to the king as supreme, or to rulers as sent by him”, 1 Peter 2:13,14. We are to honour the idea, even if it is among ourselves; we are to honour real manhood.
Ques Is that what is meant at the end of 1 Timothy, “King of those that reign”? 1 Timothy 6:15.
JT Just so, there it is; the Spirit of God carries it through.
ABP Should we keep in mind the word in Matthew that Jesus was born King, “the king of the Jews that has been born”? Matthew 2:2.
JT Yes; the wise men sought “the king ... that has been born”.
ANW Government of the people, by the people and for the people fits the present day, but it is not in the Scripture.
JT Quite so, that was mentioned in Lincoln’s speech at Gettysburg; well, we must honour Lincoln as a man; I certainly do, because God honoured him. But he was put to death, even that we must not forget, keeping in mind that kings and presidents are to be prayed for that they might not be assassinated.
Ques Reference has been made to keeping in [p. 253] mind the dual thought of David and Solomon. What are the principal differences between them?
JT Well, David is the principal idea as regards kingship, he is the beginning of it. Solomon followed that out, but he was a real man too and David made a point of it that he should be a man. And that is the thing to keep before us if we are real christians, to be men after Christ.
Rem The principle comes into this chapter that rule is on the basis, not of election, but of sovereign selection.
EAL That is shown in the end of 1 Chronicles where it says, “And Solomon sat on the throne of Jehovah as king instead of David his father, and prospered; and all Israel obeyed him”, 1 Chronicles 29:23. Solomon was sitting on the throne of Jehovah while David was still alive. That is sovereign selection.
FJF Are we not going to sit on the throne with the Lord, and are we not prepared for that now?
JT That is the idea I think; manhood is the thought that is to be carried through: “Quit yourselves like men, be strong”, 1 Corinthians 16:13.
VCL The prophet moves in quickly when there is an attack made upon Solomon, the man of God’s choice, of whom it had been said, “Jehovah loved him”. Should not that readiness to preserve manhood according to God be found with us?
JT It is a very remarkable thing that Solomon is made so much of in that sense; “Jehovah loved him”, it says; very remarkable!
Ques Have we in one sense even now come in the assembly to Solomon’s reign? David was a valiant man and a man of war, but now we might say we have come to the time of Solomon where peace is enjoyed in the assembly under the influence of [p. 254] the Spirit.
JT Very good; I think the Lord is greatly helping us in that very point. These meetings on manhood ought to help us, and I think they do.
FHL It would seem as if a test came in as to how things are to be kept alive, but God has His reserve man. Solomon is there. We must recognize that what God has before Him will go through in its power and glory, will it not?
JT And what encourages us to think that it shall go through is the way the Spirit of God is given a place, and where the Spirit has a place He makes much of Christ, the ‘Man’. It is the ‘Man’ that is in mind, “the man Christ Jesus”. That could not be said of the Spirit but it is said of Christ. We want to cultivate the idea of manhood in Christ.
JHE The Lord said, “He shall receive of mine and shall announce it to you”, John 16:14. He ever presents Christ to us, the perfect Man.
FJF Do you think that after we have remembered the Lord in the breaking of bread we look to the Lord Jesus as our great Solomon? It says, “A greater than Solomon is here”, Matthew 12:42.
JT And then He makes much of God the Father; that is what comes out at the Lord’s supper. The Father comes into evidence in due course and the Lord sees to that; He sees that the Father is brought in. That is a great matter.
SW Does sonship shine out in Solomon in relation to manhood? This chapter speaks much of Solomon as David’s son. And I wondered if, as we are enabled to reach the thought of sonship, manhood shines out in us, so that we can enter into the service of God?
JT Very good; I will tell you what comes to me. If we think of our sisters, the Lord is giving them a unique place amongst us and we are coming to see it more than ever but one thing that is perhaps [p. 255] not taken into account is that they are all sons; every sister is a son, a very remarkable thing.
FJF Why must they be silent in the assembly?
JT It is a question of the wisdom of God, it is the wisdom of God to say, “Let your women be silent in the assemblies”, 1 Corinthians 14:34.
FJF But why have they to be silent? I was wondering whether it is that God always maintains His government while we are here on earth? I was thinking of the fall, the woman sinned; Paul tells us that she “was in transgression”, 1 Timothy 2:14. Is it that God’s government is maintained while we are here?
JT I should think so; and it is a matter that causes discipline, it brings out the usefulness of discipline.
EEH Is headship the idea? “The head of every man is Christ”, 1 Corinthians 11:3.
JT Just so, it makes way for headship. It does not say that every man is a christian, but that Christ is the head of every man. It is a wonderful remark.
ABP With reference to the fall and woman’s place as a result, is not the point that the woman was deceived made in 1 Timothy 2? It says, “The woman, having been deceived, was in transgression” 1 Timothy 2:14.
JT She was in transgression. It is a very humbling thing that she has to bear that in her mind throughout the history of humanity. Yet she was remarkably honoured in that she was made, not out of clay, but out of a rib taken out of Adam; she was more honoured than Adam in that sense, because Adam was made of clay.
ABP Is it right to say that the woman sinned as being deceived while Adam sinned knowing what he was doing?
JT Well, quite so. The onus is put on the fact that it was the woman that was in transgression, and it runs down through the history of humanity. The [p. 256] cure of it all is what is in Christ. We are to be like Him, and we shall be like Him, for “we shall see him as he is” 1 John 3:2. That is where we get true manhood.
JTJr I suppose in the assembly the sisters can in their spirits be in the sense of sonship, in the meetings; but they must wait actually for the change, that is the body of glory, before they can actually function as the men do now. Would that be right?
JT Well, the only thing to be said is that they come into the place of manhood in Christ. “We shall see him as he is” 1 John 3:2: because of that we shall be like him. So that the sisters come into manhood in that sense because they are sons; they are sons; “Now are we the sons of God”, 1 John 3:2 it says. And then the Spirit is given to sisters as well as to brothers, and sonship lies in the Spirit, in having the Spirit of God.
ANW They already have sonship feelings.
JT They ought to, and no doubt they do have sonship feelings; it is what we all come into as sons of God. We are sons of God and the sisters are included in that and the Spirit of God is in them as He is in the brothers; and therefore they have the consciousness of sonship.
AR It says that God has “raised us up together, and has made us sit down together in the heavenlies”, Ephesians 2:6. They must be included in that also.
JT Just so; He has “raised us up together, and has made us sit down together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus” Ephesians 2:6; that is the dignity of it.
AR The sisters must work out the truth in their own minds.
CAM Is it not an evidence that they are in the good and spirit of sonship inasmuch as they write hymns, and they can sing in the Spirit. There are hymns in our book by the sisters.
JT Quite so, some of the best, and we expect more. We understand that quite a number have [p. 257] been made available for the hymn-book revision. It will be a question of how they come up to the mark.
AAT Sisters are to be silent in the assembly, but are there not occasions when the sisters are present with the brothers when they are not required to be silent, such as a baptism meeting? That is a household setting.
JT Well, quite so, I go with that.
WWM Is it not very important to see how this matter is explained? It says in 1 Timothy 2, “I do not suffer a woman to teach nor to exercise authority over man, but to be in quietness; for Adam was formed first, then Eve: and Adam was not deceived; but the woman, having been deceived, was in transgression”; 1 Timothy 2:12 - 14 showing that the man was placed in authority, and that should be maintained and recognised by the woman.
JT That is what we have been saying. We must observe what Scripture says, for the women are to learn in silence, but they are to learn nevertheless. Then again the superiority of the masculine to the feminine is also to be pointed out; it is largely in Paul’s writings, almost entirely. He is used of God to bring out this feature of distinction between men and women. At the same time the Spirit of God is helping us to bring out the truth of the assembly; that that is the thing to get before us; not simply the actuality of men and women, but to get the thing worked out in the assembly. The Spirit of God is here to work things out for us in the assembly; that is the thing that God is honouring, it is the great thought. It has hardly been recognized for years, for hundreds of years, but God has brought it to light in the revival and is stressing it now; and that the men are to be distinguished in the services.
Ques Would you say more about sisters taking part at baptisms? There seems to be a little difficulty [p. 258] over the difference between the household setting and the position as gathered together in assembly.
JT That has just been referred to, but there might be some need for the sisters to speak in a wider setting; we might have to question a sister if things are not right with her and she would have to speak in answer. We had a case like that in New York with two sisters, and they were very naughty. Nevertheless we may have to ask questions of sisters and they ought to answer them.
ANW That was on the occasion of an assembly meeting.
AAT What I had in my mind in asking the question was the household setting connected with baptisms or other occasions. Should a sister not be free to ask a question in that setting if she wanted to?
JT Certainly.
RWS When it says, “Let your women be silent in the assemblies”, 1 Corinthians 13:44 do I understand you to include what we call the care meeting as one of the meetings in which women are to be silent?
JT I would not say that; I should be glad to hear a sister say something if spoken in a comely way, a lowly way; if she had any information to give, why not? I would not hesitate to say yes.
AP Would the daughters of Zelophehad confirm that in Numbers 27?
JT Yes, quite; read it please.
AP “Then drew near the daughters of Zelophehad ... saying, Our father died in the wilderness, and he was not in the band of them that banded themselves together against Jehovah in the band of Korah; but he died in his own sin, and he had no sons. Why should the name of our father be taken away from his family, because he has no son? Give unto us a possession among the brethren of our father. And Moses brought their cause before Jehovah”, Numbers 27:1 - 5.
JT The word is, “The daughters of Zelophehad speak right” Numbers 27:7, that is the thing to keep in mind; they spoke right.
Ques Does Matthew 18 give the sisters scope to speak in the care meeting for instance? May a sister be a witness as in that chapter: “But if he do not hear thee, take with thee one or two besides, that every matter may stand upon the word of two witnesses or of three”, Matthew 18:16.
JT Sisters could give the witness; certainly I would say that, if it is done in a humble lowly way.
DMacd In regard to the household setting, Acts 12 might help. When Peter came out of prison he came to the house of Mary where many were gathered together and praying; and it was Rhoda that reported that Peter had returned. There is a sister speaking in the household setting.
JT Quite so; that very chapter has been used in relation to a certain matter that has happened among us, that if a sister has something needful for the carrying out of the discipline and order of the assembly, there is no reason why she should not say it; why she should not speak.
FHL That is not an assembly meeting in the light of 1 Corinthians 14 where it says it is a shame for a sister to speak in the assembly?
JT That is quite right; there are other circumstances in which they can speak, as we have said, but I think that what you point out is quite right.
SW Would you say that if sisters had occasion to speak at a care meeting, it would be a matter of intelligence and seemliness?
JT Seemliness is what should mark the thing.
JHE When it says that it is a shame for a woman to speak in the assembly, does not the context show that it is when we come together in [p. 260] assembly for ministry? There a woman would take her place in silence.
JT She would take her place, whatever is needed, in a seemly way; that is the idea. I think that is the thing that is to be emphasized particularly, that in the place the woman has to take in the service of God she should be seemly about it.
GP What about Luke 2 where Anna spoke?
JT Read the passage please, for that is one of the things that God is helping in, to give attention to Scripture that it may be spoken accurately.
GP “And there was a prophetess, Anna, daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Asher, who was far advanced in years, having lived with her husband seven years from her virginity, and herself a widow up to eighty-four years; who did not depart from the temple, serving night and day with fastings and prayers; and she coming up the same hour gave praise to the Lord, and spoke of him to all those who waited for redemption in Jerusalem”, Luke 2:36 - 38.
JT That is wonderful! It clearly establishes what we are saying as to what sisters may do or say and be seemly in what they are doing or saying.
RFD Now that all are attending the care meetings, will it still be proper to announce a week in advance the names of any seeking their place as is now the custom?
JT Well, that has often come up and we have nothing to say against it. It is only a question of time and there cannot be anything lost in waiting. God uses it, it is needful to establish the truth.
Ques Where do sisters prophesy?
JT Well, that is another thing we have in the balance; some of us are not sure where it should be; but clearly there is the suggestion that sisters should speak and prophesy. God will bring it out in time, we shall have [p. 261] to wait.
EAL There is considerable enquiry about this matter. In Acts 2 Peter quotes from Joel, “And your daughters shall prophesy”, Acts 2:17. Would the fact that this scripture is brought forward into the New Testament, mean that the sisters must now take on characteristically this idea of prophesying?
JT And that would promote modesty and humility.
JTJr The chapter just alluded to in Luke includes Mary and Elizabeth as well as Anna.
JT Quite so, very good.
WJS It would not be permitted in all meetings for a woman to speak, would it? Verses 34 and 35 of 1 Corinthians 14 refer to the woman keeping silence and that it is a shame for a woman to speak in the assembly. Would that be confined to meetings of an assembly character, and in that way give room for sisters to speak only in meetings that are not of an assembly character?
JT Clearly they are not to speak in assembly, but then there are other meetings, as has been indicated, in which they can be free to speak.
WJS You would not expect a sister to take part in a prayer meeting, would you?
JT No, I should not be free for that. There is much to be clarified, and we are waiting on the Lord for the clarification, because I think the Lord is ready to give things out that we have not had earlier. It is a question of being patient so that they may come out with authority.
RWS If that Scripture in 1 Corinthians 14 were taken too literally the sisters would not be able to say, Amen. Does it not bear upon ministry in the assembly? You would hardly expect a sister to give a word in the meeting.
JT It would not be in accord with the general spirit of ministry.
FHL [p. 262] The scripture in 1 Corinthians 14 seems to be linked with the thought of asking questions, does it not? If there is to be the learning, let them ask at home.
JT Just so, ask at home. There is so much to be learned, and it is a time I believe to be patient so that we may learn; because God is very liberal in what He is ready to give out. It is a matter of being patient.
EAL Then too, we do not want to shut out the sisters who have no husbands from asking so we have to see just what is meant by the passage.
JT Speaking in ordinary language, as one might say, we can read between the lines and see there are many things left that are not definitely spoken; but we ought to be intelligent enough to see what is between the lines as it were. There is much like that in all known writings, but especially in the Scriptures.
VCL Does not Paul write of what is characteristically seemly in assembly order as helped by the power of the Spirit?
JT Very good.