MAN (32)
MAN (32)
JTJr Would you say that what the Lord said to Peter in regard to the assembly is an outstanding feature of this chapter?
JT Yes; in Mr. Raven’s time much was made of this chapter, and the Lord used him greatly in the opening up of the truth of the assembly. It says in verse 18, “On this rock I will build my assembly, and hades’ gates shall not prevail against it”. This verse was much stressed at that time; and it has been much before us since that time, too. Of course, there are some who make a good deal of this verse in a wrong way, but it is a question of getting at the truth.
JTJr Our brethren in Spain are suffering from that system at the present time.
JT Yes; Spain had a great place among the nations at one time, but now she is of little account as a nation, but some of our brethren are under great pressure there.
WWM Is there any connection between this word “build” and the passage in Genesis 2, “And Jehovah Elohim built the rib that he had taken from Man into a woman; and brought her to Man”? Genesis 2:22. Would the thought of building connect these?
JT Quite so. “On this rock I will build my assembly, and hades’ gates shall not prevail against it”; it is not against Christ but against the assembly.
JTJr Has not the thought of the assembly been brought into great relief amongst the people of God throughout the world?
JT I think so; I think the Lord has greatly blessed the brethren and from Mr. Raven’s time the truth as to the assembly has been greatly developed, and hades’ gates shall not prevail against it.
ABP Are we also to have in mind the man to whom this was said?
JT [p. 504] Well, quite so; the Lord used Peter particularly to open up the truth at the beginning.
ABP I thought that you may have had Peter in mind in view of our subject of manhood. We have been speaking of manhood as seen set out in persons and I wondered what particular feature of manhood is seen in Peter in this chapter.
JT Well, he is not the rock, of course; Christ is the Rock; but still, Peter has a great place as to the foundation truth of the assembly.
JTJr Mr. Darby used to speak of Peter’s church, Paul’s church and John’s church. Peter’s church comes first in the Acts.
ABP Is it connected particularly with the kingdom side of the truth? And is it necessary for us to be grounded in Peter’s ministry before we rightly can take on Paul’s ministry?
JT I would say that.
AR Would the rock be seen in the confession of Peter? “Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God”. Would that be the rock?
JT Quite so.
JTJr We have much said as to the rock in the Old Testament. This would be somewhat the same idea, I suppose. In God’s mind there is something that cannot be overthrown.
AR It says in 1 Corinthians 10, “Now the rock was the Christ”, 1 Corinthians 10:4.
ANW Stability and permanency are features of the rock. Peter’s name means ‘stone’ which is kindred, but not exactly the same idea.
SCM Peter, in his first epistle, speaks of living stones being built up a spiritual house; I suppose he got the idea from this experience.
JT Quite so; that enters into this matter; Peter’s name means ‘stone’ as has been said: “Thou art Peter, and on this rock I will build my assembly”.
[p. 505] The rock was the confession of Christ as the Son of God; so that the rock is not Peter, but the Son of God.
ANW The words “Peter” (meaning stone) and “rock” are different words. To make Peter the rock is to falsify the truth.
Rem One thing that marked Peter’s church (to use an expression which was used earlier in the meeting) was the large number of converts he had through his preaching; three thousand were added at Pentecost and these later were increased to five thousand.
L W. Does the expression “hades’ gates” suggest an administration of evil which is against the assembly? And is it right to say that down through the ages the assembly has withstood the attacks of the enemy?
JT Just so.
ABP Is it not interesting, in view of the error that has been brought in as to the rock, that this paragraph is preceded by the Lord’s words, “Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees”?
JT Quite so; very good; that is, beware of the danger of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees.
Ques Does this section not suggest that if the assembly is to be in its true setting we must be right as to the Person of Christ? He raises the question as to who He is.
JTJr That entered into Peter’s preaching; although he did not preach Him as the Son of God, yet it was the Person: “God has made him, this Jesus ... both Lord and Christ”, Acts 2:36.
AP Peter’s ministry in the house of Cornelius would be assembly ministry.
TNW The Lord Jesus says, “My Father who is in the heavens” had revealed the truth to Peter. Though he was not able to say much about it at the time, he would understand later on that it was the Father.
JT Just so; so that “the Son of the living God” is the rock, and this revelation to Peter developed the truth of the assembly to that extent.
JTJr Perhaps we should give more consideration to the extent of Peter’s work in connection with the assembly.
JT Paul’s ministry was the leading ministry as to the assembly but Peter’s ministry leads up to Paul’s.
ANW Peter’s ministry makes way for Paul’s. Luke seems to have design in giving Peter prominence in the early part of the Acts, and then giving full place to Paul subsequently.
JT What a ministry they had! And what a place the Lord gave them! And what a place they should have with us, too, as loving the truth! Both Peter and Paul should be held in the highest regard by us in the light of the truth.
CAM In giving the keys of the kingdom to Peter the Lord would show his confidence in him.
ABP Would there be some link with the ministry of Peter and Paul in the two feedings in Mark’s gospel? In the first feeding the Lord lifted up His eyes to heaven and gave thanks, suggesting the kingdom of the heavens, whereas in the second He did not look up to heaven, which may suggest the presence of the Spirit of God here.
JT Quite so; say more.
ABP Well, I understand from what has been ministered that the kingdom of the heavens is that feature of the kingdom relating to Christ, the King, in heaven, whereas the kingdom of God is more what is centred in the Spirit’s operation down here, and I thought that Peter and Paul develop these two phases of the truth. Peter says that Jesus has been made Lord and Christ. Paul says that the kingdom is righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.
JT Very [p. 507] good.
JTJr Do not these thoughts therefore enter into the position; the kingdom of the heavens is heaven’s rule here; and the kingdom of God is God’s sway here in the power of the Spirit.
ABP I thought this would help us in the apprehension of the truth of the assembly.
SCM Could we speak of the “rock” as the foundation and the stones as material to be built thereon, so that the assembly is to be built; but the rock would be the foundation?
JT Just so: “On this rock I will build my assembly”. That refers to the Son of God.
JTJr Peter speaks of that, does he not? “Yourselves also, as living stones, are being built up”, 1 Peter 2:5. The stones are built upon the foundation which is the rock.
JT It is a very important distinction.
WWM Do we need to understand the objective side of the truth in the kingdom of the heavens to come into the enjoyment of what is subjective by the Spirit? The Lord asked, in chapter 13, after His parables as to the kingdom, “Have ye understood all these things?”. We have attended meetings, some of us for many years, and spiritual things have been before us. It is a question, therefore, if we can answer like the disciples, who said, “Yea, Lord”. The Lord could then say, “For this reason every scribe discipled to the kingdom of the heavens is like a man that is a householder who brings out of his treasure things new and old”, Matthew 13:51,52.
JT Our chapter continues, “For the Son of man is about to come in the glory of his Father with his angels, and then he will render to each according to his doings. Verily I say unto you, There are some of those standing here that shall not taste of death at all until they shall have seen the Son of man coming in his kingdom” (verses 27,28). It is now a question of the Son of man instead of the Son [p. 508] of God.
JTJr You are calling attention to the distinction between the Lord’s titles as Son of God and Son of man. Does the title Son of man suggest His relations with men, stressing the idea of manhood?
JT Yes.
JTJr The Son of man would have a distinctive place, then, in relation to men. I think He alone uses the title in the gospels in regard to Himself. It must have had much importance in His mind.
JT That is good; I am glad you mentioned that. It is a question of man; not only that He is Son of God, but it is a question of what man is.
AR Does verse 27 refer to the coming kingdom and verse 28 to what took place in the next chapter? He is now about to come in glory.
JTJr It will be as Son of man because it is the rejected Christ.
JT Yes. Angels are mentioned and have a great place, but man is greater; it is the Son of man coming in His kingdom.
JTJr We are looking for that.
AR Will the angels be subservient to man?
JTJr They are seen ascending and descending on Christ.
JT The point in John 1:51 is the Son of man coming in His kingdom. Man is everything in heaven, you might say, because Christ is Man. Man has a unique place in God’s mind. We have much in Paul’s ministry on this whole matter.
JTJr Stephen saw the Son of man in heaven. That is the position now.
JT So that we must keep in mind that angels are not pre-eminent; Man is pre-eminent.
ATD Will you help as to “the glory of his Father” in verse 27?
JT The Son of man coming in His kingdom is the great thought there. The reference to the Father [p. 509] would refer to the honour He has from the Father, the great place that the Son has with the Father.
CAM Earlier in the chapter the Father had brought the glory of Christ into Peter’s soul. With him it was an inward thing, but this verse refers to the manifestation of His glory.
ABP In referring to the “holy mountain” Peter says, “For he received from God the Father honour and glory”, 2 Peter 1:17.
JT That is good; say more.
ABP I thought that would link with the thought of “the glory of his Father” in verse 27. Also, we have a similar idea in Hebrews 1:6 where it says, “When he brings in the firstborn into the habitable world, he says, And let all God’s angels worship him”, Hebrews 1:6.
ANW While the Lord speaks of the Son of man coming in His kingdom, which I suppose refers to the mount, He is disclosed there as the Son of the Father — “my beloved Son”. Though one and the same Person yet in the vision in the glory it is “my beloved Son”, Matthew 17:5.
JTJr 350:2 speaks of “honours rare”.
AR Verse 28 refers to those who would not “taste of death at all until they shall have seen ...” Should we have a sense in our souls as to whether we are going to die or be taken up? We should know whether we are going to live or whether we are going to die.
JTJr I suppose we should know whether the Lord is going to take us or if we are to be left here till the rapture.
A.B.P. How can we know?
JTJr I think we should know by the Spirit. Do you think we should know if we are going to be here when the Lord comes, or if the Lord is going to take us?
[p. 510] JT Oh, I think so; and the assembly is to have the nearest place in heaven.
AR It says as to the Spirit, in John 16:13, that He “will announce to you what is coming”, John 16:13. We should know what is about to come.
GVD Simeon knew that he was going to die, but that he would see the Lord’s Christ: “It was divinely communicated to him by the Holy Spirit, that he should not see death before he should see the Lord’s Christ”, Luke 2:26. Perhaps we should know whether or not we will be here at the Lord’s coming.
ABP Do you feel that there should be conscious knowledge generally amongst the saints as to this? It is proper that we should be expecting the Lord’s imminent return, but does not the Father have control of the times and the seasons? I wondered if it is right to expect that we can have a conscious sense, without doubt, that the Lord is coming before we are taken in death.
JT I would be guided by Paul’s ministry.
ABP He had the consciousness from the Lord that He was going to take him to Himself.
JT Yes; it is marvellous to think that man can have such a wonderful place with God.
JTJr Paul had the desire to depart to be with Christ, but also to remain with the saints.
JT Yes; “having the desire for departure and being with Christ, for it is very much better”, Philippians 1:23.
ABP He had said earlier, “We, the living, who remain to the coming of the Lord”, 1 Thessalonians 4:15. He included himself among the living.
ANW Peter was definitely told by the Lord that he would die, “signifying by what death he should glorify God”, John 21:19. But then the disciples [p. 511] made a mistake about John when they said that he would not die. Are there not cases where the matter is one of prophecy and it is fulfilled? But so far as we are concerned we could hardly say that.
AR The next to the last verse of the Bible says, “He that testifies these things says, Yea, I come quickly”. The answer is, “Amen; come, Lord Jesus”, Revelation 22:20.
Rem The language of the evil bondman of Matthew 24:48 would be, “My lord delays to come”, Matthew 24:48. But the word which has been quoted from Revelation is what the Spirit is saying.
WWM It was said as to the Thessalonians that they “turned to God from idols ... to await his Son from the heavens”, 1 Thessalonians 1:9,10.
ABP If the prospect of the Lord’s coming is not a living hope in our hearts we are not vitally in christianity, are we?
JT I would say that, it is a living hope.
AR Your word at a funeral recently was about life; that “in him was life”, John 1:4.
JT Life is the great thought that John had in mind.
LW Did not Paul have life in mind when he said that to be absent from the body and present with the Lord is very much better? Is it not continuing in life, for the believer?.
JT The subject of life is a very great matter.
JTJr So the revelation to Peter would have that in mind: “The Son of the living God”. We should connect the great subject of life with the truth of the Son of God.
Rem It says in verse 25, “For whosoever shall desire to save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake shall find it”.
JT That is the Lord’s own word.
SCM “God is not God of the dead, but of the living”, Matthew 22:32.
JT Quite so.
[p. 512] FNW I believe you have said that the Spirit would give the assembly intimation as to the nearness of the Lord’s return.
JT Certainly I would say that; the Lord will give intimations, so definite is the place that man has with God, in life. It is the living God.
BT The word is, “Encouraging one another, and by so much the more as ye see the day drawing near”, Hebrews 10:25. And then Peter speaks of “waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God”, 2 Peter 3:12.
ANW Paul puts it beautifully in 1 Thessalonians 4:15: “We the living, who remain to the coming of the Lord”.