MAN (16)
[p. 280] MAN (16)
Luke 1:5 - 25, Luke 1:57 - 86; 1 Kings 17:1; 2 Kings 2:1 - 25
JT I think that the brethren will recognise that these two men, John the baptist and Elijah, may be considered together as representing the prophetic ministry of both the Old and New Testaments. The thought is to start with John the baptist and then to revert to Elijah. We have read more about John the baptist because he is so prominent in the New Testament and is a forerunner of the Lord Jesus, thus having a unique place. Elijah has a great place in the New Testament too. The Lord Himself refers to him that if Israel could receive John the baptist he might be regarded as being identical with Elijah. So there is a strong connection between these two prophets. Moses was a characteristic prophet, too; in a sense he was the leading prophet because he speaks of Christ as One who would be raised up like unto him. He says, “A prophet shall God raise up to you ... like me”, Acts 7:37. That would refer to the Lord Himself.
FHL Is there a link with Malachi, “Remember the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, Behold, I send unto you Elijah the prophet, before the coming of the great and terrible day of Jehovah”? Malachi 4:4.
JT That is a good contribution to our subject for it links Elijah with John the baptist.
ABP Will you say something about “the spirit and power of Elias”?
JT I think it speaks for itself, and shows how remarkably John the baptist and Elias are linked in the Scriptures.
VCL Do John the baptist and Elias link on two dispensations? John the baptist does not seem to come into the Spirit’s day but he links on with it as seeing the Lord, and Elias also saw the Lord [p. 281] on the holy mount. Is there something noteworthy in this feature of manhood, linked on with the Lord’s own day?
JT Quite so; and Moses was on the mount. He was the meekest man in all the earth. That is a point to be connected with our subject.
AR It says in John’s gospel, “There was a man sent from God, his name John”, John 1:6.
JT There again the word ‘man’ is prominently used. Also, we have “the man Christ Jesus”, showing that God had in His mind to stress the thought of manhood as distinguished from all other creatures; angels and all other creatures. The thought of man is greatly stressed, in that sense.
JTJr Is grace especially in mind in what is coming in through John? His name suggests grace.
JT Yes; the name John carries that meaning.
JTJr And is Elijah’s ministry on the same line? Was it grace moving in regard to conditions in Israel?
JT Well, I think that Elisha, following Elijah, is more representative of the spirit of grace than Elijah himself.
Ques Is the spirit of Elias seen in John the baptist in his severity toward the Sadducees and others who were not real?
JT Well, we are told, early in the gospel of John, that “the law was given by Moses: grace and truth subsists through Jesus Christ”, John 1:17.
Ques Do you mean that John’s incoming was the incoming of grace?
JT The fulness of the thought is in the Lord Himself, grace and truth subsist by Him.
Rem You had stressed that grace characterised Elisha rather than Elijah and I wondered if the spirit of Elijah was seen in John when he was severe in what he had to say to such as the [p. 282] Sadducees.
JT Just so; he was severe, but Elisha was marked by grace.
SCM In the last verse of chapter 1 it says that “the child grew”. Adam, being created, would be of full stature, but all other men grew, did they not?
JT Yes; you are stressing the idea of growing.
AR The baptist says, in John’s gospel, “This was he of whom I said, He that comes after me is preferred before me, for he was before me”, John 1:30.
ANW Have you any thought why the life of John the baptist was cut off as it was, in view of the Lord’s word about him in chapter 17 after the experience on the holy mount?
JT Well, I would say that it was not accidental. His work was done, I would say. There was not anything left undone that he should have done before he was taken.
ANW It is striking the way the Lord puts the matter, saying, “But I say unto you that Elias has already come, and they have not known him, but have done unto him whatever they would. Thus also the Son of man is about to suffer from them. Then the disciples understood that he spoke to them of John the baptist”, Matthew 17:12,13.
JT Well, there was nothing left undone for John the baptist to do. So that we can calculate that the prophets were raised up of God and they did what they were intended to do; God saw to that. The work was done by each one.
JTJr Some served for comparatively short periods; they had very compressed lives. John the baptist was perhaps young when beheaded.
JT I would think that he was not more than thirty years of age. And that is a very important matter too, to think that God had His own thoughts for John and these thoughts went through, they were not allowed to fall to the ground. Nothing can fall to the ground that God orders; and that is true [p. 283] as to every christian, I am sure. Things are all done according to God in each case. It is a great thing to have in mind that our lives are in His hand.
EEH What are we to learn from the uniqueness of the birth of John the baptist? It seems to resemble so closely the birth of our Lord Jesus.
JT It certainly was unique, but it was brought about in a measured way, too. John was thoroughly suitable to be the forerunner of Christ, and he took a lowly place in his service, following his Master fully. Each of us must learn from Christ, even John the baptist.
ABP Is suffering attendant upon the service of the prophet? Stephen could ask, “Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted?”, Acts 7:52. Does it seem that suffering is the order of the day for the prophets?
JT And the order of the day for us, too. “Because to you has been given, as regards Christ, not only the believing on him but the suffering for him also”, Philippians 1:29. It is given to us to suffer.
ABP The apostle Paul exhorts us to “be emulous of spiritual manifestations, but rather that ye may prophesy”; 1 Corinthians 14:1 should we realise that it will involve suffering?
JT I would think so, it is given to us to suffer. It is a great advantage to be sufferers. Many of us would prefer to avoid suffering, and in a certain sense it is right to have that feeling, but at the same time it is given to us on behalf of Christ to suffer; not only to believe but to suffer for Him.
WWM Is it not important to note what the Lord Himself said about John the baptist? “But what went ye out to see? a prophet? Yea, I say to you, and more than a prophet: this is he of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, who shall prepare thy way before thee. Verily I say to you, that there is not arisen among the born of women a greater than John the baptist”, Matthew 11:11.
JT [p. 284] That is very remarkable; it is one of the greatest tributes that you can get anywhere except as to the Lord Himself, and perhaps Paul.
ANW Is he not unique in that he is the subject of prophecy? His birth and coming were foretold in prophecy: “Thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to prepare his ways”.
Ques Is the bringing in of John distinct in the different gospels? In Luke it is a question of a son being brought in and his name John; then he is introduced in John’s gospel as without any antecedents, a man sent from God whose name was John. Are these two presentations related to the character of the gospels themselves? Do we have the development of grace in one and in the other the introduction of the Son of God by a man sent from God?
JT Well, I think you are right; I would attach the idea of grace to John’s gospel, too, although grace characterises Luke. It is perfectly right to regard John as the great gospel for grace; and it is suitable that John the baptist should have the peculiar place he is given in John’s gospel for his name signifies grace.
Ques In John’s gospel the baptist denies and says that he is not Elias, but in Luke it says, “And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias”. What is the point in his going before Him in the spirit and power of Elias?
JT It is to distinguish Elias; at the same time it suggests the character of John’s ministry.
Ques Reference has been made to John’s suffering pathway. The Lord said of him, “He was the burning and shining lamp, and ye were willing for a season to rejoice in his light”, John 5:35. Would the burning refer to the suffering and the shining to his [p. 285] testimony?
JT Very good. Will you say more?
Rem Well, I only thought that the burning comes first in the Lord’s reference; John was a burning and shining light. But in order that the shining might be maintained there had to be the consuming of all that was contrary.
JT Burning is something that is felt, and it may be a friendly warmth. John’s ministry would not be hostile but friendly.
JTJr Energy is seen in John the baptist, the energy of manhood. That would be a feature of manhood. Energy marked him, and courage, in view of all that was against him. I was thinking of the young in that connection, that there is the energy of youth.
JT Persons who are used distinctively in the Lord’s service are usually taken up young. The Lord does not take up old men in that sense, but young men, that they may be developed. And they should take heed to themselves too in their service and see to it that they are properly adjusted, and that they distinguish the ministry, and distinguish it in energy.
JTJr So that John was in the desert and had certain kinds of food and clothing, which I suppose we should know about as young men seeking to serve.
JT Quite so, there is nothing to minister to the flesh in the desert, you know.
“In the desert God will teach thee
What the God that thou hast found —
Patient, gracious, powerful, holy;
All His grace shall there abound”. (76:6).
That is a beautiful reference to what we are speaking about.
LW Is there some spiritual suggestion in what is said, that his food was locusts and wild honey and that his garment was of camel’s hair and that he wore a leathern girdle about his [p. 286] loins?
JT Well, there is nothing to distinguish him, nothing that the natural man would seek, nothing for the natural man at all; he was content with what the wilderness afforded him.
CFE In Luke 1:15 it says, “He shall be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother’s womb”, Luke 1:15. He was given the Holy Spirit at a very early age, even from his mother’s womb.
JT Filled! Filled with the Spirit, just so. It is remarkable.
VCL The time in which John comes in seems to have been somewhat dark, but would that not encourage us to know that whatever the crisis in the testimony God is prepared to work it out in a man?
JT Well, it may be in a woman, but manhood in that sense, because the word ‘man’ covers both man and woman. In the beginning it was: “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion”, Genesis 1:26. The woman is brought into it.
VCL So that a Deborah came in when the male side of manhood was lacking. Would you say that a man or a woman filled with the Spirit is one of the greatest things that God has on earth?
JT That is good, and good for the sisters who are here, for they have been distinguished of late. They have had more put upon them than I have ever known before. God has brought them forward and He is going to support them in the position He has given them, and the brethren should do the same and be thoroughly with God in what He is doing. The sisters are greatly needed in bringing up children and in visiting the sick and in many other ways, for God has given them a wonderful field of service.
SCM It is said of John: “He shall be great before the Lord”, Luke 1:15. Is his greatness seen in the place he took when he said, “He must increase, but I must decrease”, John 3:30.
[p. 287] showing that he held the Lord as paramount?
JT Quite so. He was to be great before the Lord, not before men, “He shall be great before the Lord, and he shall drink no wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother’s womb”. That is a remarkable statement!
RWS All this should help us in our meetings for prophetic ministry. In 1 Corinthians 14 where we have so much as to prophetic ministry, Paul speaks about being grown men. Should not all this strengthen, in these days of weakness, prophetic ministry in our localities?
JT And then manhood is seen in the way we bear things. We may say of a brother that he is the leading man in a meeting. That is often said, and there are many like that to whom the brethren look, which is right if we do not go beyond what is right and take too much upon ourselves. I thought I might add that to your remark. This is a time to be encouraged and be strong. We need men who will take on things and bear things so that matters are carried through; and strength is needed in the sense of manhood. “Quit yourselves like men; be strong”, 1 Corinthians 16:13.
CAM Is your thought in referring to Elijah at the present time specially in view of the near coming of the Lord, to make ready for the Lord a prepared people?
JT You are stressing the thought of a prepared people. What have you in mind?
CAM The coming of the Lord, and whether the prophetic ministry referred to would take on the character of preparing the saints because the Lord’s coming is so near.
JT The word ‘prophetic’ has to be carefully analysed as to its significance. It is not now a [p. 288] question of developing prophecy in itself, but the prophetic ministry, as you say, is the word that is used in the sense of exercising us.
FNW It says in verse 16 of our chapter, “And many of the sons of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God”. Would that be a true mark of prophetic ministry?
JT Very good, that would be true prophetic ministry, I would think.
FNW Has not the ministry that has come to us through Mr. Darby and others who have followed him been characteristically a ministry of Christ? It moves our hearts to Christ.
JT That is phraseology which we frequently hear. He is ministering Christ.
Ques And is not the great end, as has been suggested, that persons are turned “to the thoughts of just men, to make ready for the Lord a prepared people”? Is not that the character of the ministry today, to make ready for the Lord a prepared people?
JT And each one of us is to see to it that he is prepared. It is not that others prepare us, but we are to see to it that we are prepared. It is “a prepared people”.
JTJr John’s parents were called upon to do certain things but then John had to do certain things, also: “Many of the sons of Israel shall he turn ... And he shall go before him”, and so on.
JT Just so; and he did too, he knew what to say.
FHL Each of the gospels refers to Isaiah 40:3, “The voice of one crying in the wilderness: Prepare ye the way of Jehovah”. Is there any application of that at the present time?
JT Preparing the way is a matter that has to be looked into as to the use of the word ‘way’. It is a peculiar word and its use in Scripture is to be noted.
[p. 289] FHL In the beginning of Acts it is emphasized particularly is it not?
JT Quite so; we get the idea of it in the book of Acts. And so in chapter 10 Cornelius is brought into it and there are other such men as that; they indicate what is meant.
Rem Paul’s word to Timothy as to the Scriptures is that “the man of God may be complete, fully fitted to every good work”, 2 Timothy 3:17.
JT Yes, fully fitted; just so. The word to Timothy was: “But thou, abide in those things which thou hast learned”, 2 Timothy 3:14. The question is how each one looks after himself, or herself, because we have to see to it. Of course, the elders are to look after everyone in the meeting; but at the same time each brother and sister is to look after himself, to see to himself. “Give heed to thyself” Paul said to Timothy. I think it is very important that each one sees to himself, and does not count on others to look after him.
ANW “Give heed to thyself and to the teaching; continue in them; for, doing this, thou shalt save both thyself and those that hear thee”, 1 Timothy 4:16.
JT Just so, very good: “Thyself and those that hear thee”.
AAT In 1 Corinthians 14:3 it says, “But he that prophesies speaks to men in edification, and encouragement, and consolation”, 1 Corinthians 14:3. Is that the character of the present ministry?
JT Surely, that is what we call prophetic ministry. The idea is that the prophetic ministry builds up the brethren, dealing with them in every phase of their beings.
AAT Why does it say “speaks to men”?
JT That word includes women as well as men, it means responsible persons.
ANW “[p. 290] He ... speaks with a tongue ... to God: ... he that prophesies speaks to men”, 1 Corinthians 14:3.
AP John the baptist sealed his ministry with his blood. Did he develop spiritual manhood through suffering? He was able to rebuke Herod; he suffered for the sake of others.
JT Just so, he was honoured in the way he suffered. The Lord refers to him in that sense, that they “have done unto him whatever they would”, Matthew 17:12. They took latitude in regard of him. And it is given to us too, every one of us, to suffer for His sake.
Ques, Would the initial word of “Elijah the Tishbite, of the inhabitants of Gilead”, in 1 Kings 17, connect a local position with a matter of universal importance? He said, “As Jehovah the God of Israel liveth, before whom I stand, there shall not be dew nor rain these years, except by my word”. That would affect everybody, would it not?
JT Just so, what a wide thought it is! And Elijah could say that it was according to “my word”. We should not be ashamed to use the personal pronoun if necessary when it is a question of the word of God.
Rem And so it might be that the prophetic word spoken here or elsewhere could affect the whole universal position.
JT Quite so. And as we were saying, it is “except by my word”. So that we can use personal pronouns if necessary, if God is indicating that we should use them.
ANW The introduction of this wonderful man Elijah so abruptly on the scene as sent from God is so very much like John the baptist whom we have been considering.
JTJr There is no account of his previous history, therefore would it mean what God has worked secretly in [p. 291] persons?
JT Quite so. That lends force to his reference to “my word”. Mr. Darby’s writings will confirm what I have said, that we need not be ashamed of speaking of ourselves if we can speak according to what the Lord conveys to us. We need not be afraid of it if we want to convey the truth by it.
JTJr “I myself, Paul”, 2 Corinthians 10:1.
JT Just so, how free Paul was to do it.
GVD When James was about to give a prophetic touch he said, “Brethren, listen to me”, Acts 15:13.
JT Very good.
Ques Would Deborah be such a person when she said: “The villages ceased in Israel, ceased until that I Deborah arose, that I arose a mother in Israel”? Judges 5:7.
JT Just so; exactly! Why should she not say it? Why should women not have their place properly? If one can illustrate the truth through speaking about oneself, do it and God will support it.
VCL There was power in what Elijah said here but later on he lost his power when thinking of himself. Is it a question of one being conscious of the Spirit of God having right of way?
JT Quite so.
FHL Elijah must have retained his power during the three and a half years of dearth, according to James 5.
JT Yes, just so; what man is to be compared with Elijah and the peculiar place he had? I remember dear Mr. Revell saying that Elijah went back to Horeb and resigned his commission. God accepted his resignation but He took him to heaven.
TEH James says that he prayed “and it did not rain upon the earth three years and six months; and again he prayed, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth caused its fruit to spring forth”, James 5:17,18.
JT So that the stress is not so much on grace as authority, with Elijah. It is the authority of [p. 292] God, what God wants to do or say, and we cannot question that.
AR It says in Hebrews 13:7: “Remember your leaders who have spoken to you the word of God; and considering the issue of their conversation, imitate their faith”, Hebrews 13:7 Quite so, “the word of God”.
ABP Why does James speak of Elias as a man of like passions to us; is it to encourage us to be like Elias?
JT He had the ordinary passions that men have, God knows that for He made us, and He is prepared to use us if we are prepared to speak the word of God, even though we may be required to speak of ourselves.
RWS It says in 2 Kings 2:9, “And it came to pass when they had gone over, that Elijah said to Elisha, Ask what I shall do for thee, before I am taken away from thee. And Elisha said, I pray thee, let a double portion of thy spirit be upon me”, 2 Kings 2:9.
JT How he valued Elijah! He wanted a double portion of Elijah’s spirit. And it is open to anyone of us to get the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is a full portion; we are to be filled with the Spirit. The Father will give the Holy Spirit to those who ask.
RWS We specially need the Spirit in these difficult days!
JT Just so, every one of us needs the Spirit. We cannot get along without Him. If anyone wants to make progress as a christian he needs the Spirit; he can get the Spirit through asking, if he is a believer.
ABP In our last three readings there have been transitional periods. There was a changeover from Moses to Joshua, and then from David to Solomon, and now from Elijah to Elisha. There must be some point in this thought being brought before us so frequently. Such times are usually difficult and test [p. 293] discernment and fidelity. Would it seem that Elisha felt this and felt the need of a double portion of Elijah’s spirit to rightly carry on?
JT Quite so, and he got it too; he saw Elijah when he went up. And so the Lord gives a full portion to everyone of us who seeks it. If we are really believers we should not be without the Spirit for He is available to every believer.
ANW Elijah said that Elisha had asked a hard thing. Is the hardness on the part of the one desiring it? Is it that we need to be in a fit state?
JT It would imply that the thing was worth having and that it would cost something. And so, if we get the Spirit it is no light matter. Think of what it has cost Christ that we should have the Spirit.
FHL Was it not an act of grace on Elijah’s part to go with Elisha, in verse 1, as if it would confirm him in his service?
JT Very good. He went with him and clearly he wished it so.
AR What is the thought in the chariot of fire and horses of fire? Do they suggest the power of God?
JT I suppose so, a chariot and horses suggest the power of carrying.
Ques In Deuteronomy 21:17, a double portion is to be given to the firstborn; is this idea connected with the gift of the Holy Spirit as distinguishing the firstborn ones?
JT It is the real christian position marked by liberality; it is the full thought. Think of what the fulness of the Spirit means in the singular, and then a double portion! What fulness there is in that! And that is christianity; the fulness of things that God brings in, and we should not be content to be without it.
[p. 294] GH Is being full of the Holy Spirit the idea of the double portion?
JT Just so; “be filled with the Spirit”, Acts 9:17. The Lord Jesus was said to be full of the Holy Spirit — not filled but full. It was proper to Him, He was full of the Holy Spirit.
AP Is the Spirit given to us under certain conditions? There is the principle of asking as in Luke 11; then the principle of obedience as in Acts 5:32; the principle of faith in Galatians 3; and then on hearing the word as in Acts 10.
JT Very good. The book of Acts opens up this whole matter as to the Spirit and how available He is to us as believers, but it is on God’s own terms, not on ours.
WWM Is this incident with Elijah and Elisha typical of the first chapter of the Acts where the disciples stood and watched the Lord go up to heaven? And is it an important matter to consider the thought of seeing Him go up?
JT The first part of the Acts is full of the thought of the Lord going up and how the Spirit came in, and the fulness of it all; the plenitude of it. And if we are really believers we are on the same basis, for the Spirit is still here.
JTJr The Spirit helps us in difficult matters that come up amongst us to which we might attach this idea of double care meetings and visiting that involve a good deal of exercise, but the Spirit is with us to give us patience to go over matters and go through with them and have them settled.
JT And so in the matter of the sisters which is constantly coming up, the Spirit of God gives us understanding of the whole matter; and it is a great matter too, to understand the place they have and the way in which God can use them, for they are to be usable, not simply numbers of sisters but sisters who can be used in the testimony.
[p. 295] WWM Would you say that in our recent care meetings when our sisters have been with us that there is more of the Spirit there than there has been before?
JT I am certain of that; we had a matter before us on Saturday night relating to a brother and his wife, who were present and it was put upon them that they should speak and they did speak. And we are now waiting on the result of the Spirit in these two persons.
SW The evidence of Elisha having had the spirit of Elijah is seen in that he smote the waters with the mantle of Elijah.
JT Quite so, he was not ashamed to follow Elijah, to be a disciple. He did not want to make out that he was equal to Elijah but he was not ashamed to carry on the service of Elijah.
ABP He had the reputation of having poured water on the hands of Elijah.
JHE The Spirit is sent from a glorified Christ.
JT Showing the great latitude there is for divine Persons in Their own realm. Who can tell how far heaven is? God alone knows.
FNW It says here, “Jehovah would take up Elijah into the heavens”. Do we see Christ as Man in heaven in Acts 1 and then the thought of manhood worked out here below in virtue of the Spirit’s presence in Acts 2?.
JT Quite so; it says He was taken up.
SW Would you say that before persons are qualified for service there is a testing period such as Elisha had here, beginning at Gilgal and ending at the Jordan?
JT It is a testing period every minute that we are on the earth; it is a testing period all the time.